S5E6: Casey Snow, Glorious Food, and a D&D Revisit
Season 5, Episode 6:
Casey Snow, Glorious Food, and a D&D Revisit
Released on September 21st, 2022. For complete episode info, visit this page!
SB: Okay.
CP: (Singing in the style of the musical Oliver) Food, glorious food–
SB: No. No. I don't think talking about Oliver is the, is the right way to get it into this conversation.
CP: It's not the move. I know it's not the move it's just in my head now.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
CP: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities. Hi, I'm Cat Polivoda; a local fat feminist and shop owner who just wants to see a dang color-changing tree. I tell you, very few yellow and red leaves around here so far. I am joined by my co-host and producer, Saraya Boghani.
SB: Hi, I'm Saraya. I'm a fat, multiracial Minneapolitan millennial who rejects any other newly-coined name for this season other than Fat Girl Fall. It is Fat Girl Fall period.
CP: Absolutely. On Matter of Fat, we talk about the cultural politics of fat liberation with a Midwest perspective.
SB: Yeah. In this episode we discuss fatness and food–so just be warned, we will be talking about food–share our interview with Casey Snow, and revisit Bloom Chic in the dirt and discourse.
CP: Ooh, let's get into it all as
Both: –a matter of fat.
CP: Food, glorious food! Or however it goes.
SB: Or however it goes. Like, you didn't make me watch a clip of the musical Oliver before this so we could understand where that came from, but okay–
CP: I don't think my tune was totally on, but yes, that was a little ditty from the musical Oliver, where they sing “Food, glorious food.”
We just–I made Saraya watch it through our FaceTime. It was a very poor viewing environment, and also it's a very bleak song in a very bleak show, hich does–the vibe is not what we're going for here, but like, food, glorious food.
SB: Yeah. We're not coming into this from a scarcity mindset. Instead we wanted to talk about it because it comes up a little bit later in the episode in our interview with Casey, but we wanna talk about it from a frame of being joyful and enjoying food.
And also I think something that comes up for me as a fat person who enjoys food, enjoys baking, all this; I just sometimes think, like when I'm talking about it, there's this little voice in the back of my mind that's like, “Oh, of course she's talking about food. Of course she likes food, she's fat,” and I hate it. I really hate it.
It impacts me and it's not anything that I came up with. That's all internalized from other things that I've heard and seen and witnessed. And so I just am grateful that we've been doing this long enough that I'm in a space with people in my life that I like to talk about food, but also, it'll get you down sometimes in society. But I, I don't know. I think it's appropriate for us to talk about this, so I really threw a lot out there. I don't know what you have to say to that Cat, but–
CP: –Saraya, I have so many thoughts. Like we talked about talking about this, and I have more thoughts than I even thought I had. Good thing we have a podcast.
But I do wanna just honor what you shared. Like it is a little, there's a lot of weird feelings that can come with being a fat person talking about food publicly on the internet, on our podcast. And I mean, there's like a–like you mentioned, it's not like we put those ideas there, but like, because of how, people's assumptions about fat people. I mean, I come back to this idea that, like, I've said it before and I'll say it again, like, fat people are not fat simply because we eat more food.
Like that's not how it works. And so like, the assumption that fat people talking about food is like part and parcel with how we have become fat, I think is not a fair assessment. I think it probably is accurate for some people, but isn't for others. I don't know. This is probably not where, I don't know where you thought I would go with this, but that does come to mind for me, you know?
SB: Yeah. Yeah. Even Sonalee Rashatwar, fatsextherapist on Instagram, posted this video the other day of them just enjoying eating food.
CP: That's great.
SB: For me, I'm like, “Ah, I've seen this before.” And then part of me is like–and also it still feels radical, and it's a weird position for us to be in where we've been talking about fat lib, we've been supportive of each other as friends. We have other friends who are supportive of the kinds of topics and ways that we choose to live our life. And I think I forget sometimes that it does still feel radical for so many other people, and even myself at times, because I've been so indoctrinated in a culture that doesn't think about–and this is something you just talked about with me offline–but like, a culture that looks at food as everything other than like nourishment and joy, and more so calories or a tool to impact your body.
CP: And like the moralizing that goes along with food seeps into so many food related conversations.
I also think like, you know, there–I don't know what your newsfeed looks like, but I am just, I get so much food content on the internet, and I like it a lot, even for someone like myself who doesn't cook a lot right now. But so often it's accompanied with some kind of diet messaging. And then I have to make this choice of like, “Well, I reject that, but do I still wanna like, look at this?” Like, sometimes me and my boyfriend will send each other videos of recipes we wanna make, but we'll be like, “Um, just disregard where this came from. But like, doesn't this look good?” You know?
And it's very weird to have to have to actively do that; to like, try to separate, you know.
SB: Oh, it reminds me of that Kardashian moment. It's like, “Well, I'm not gonna eat this, but isn't it so nice to smell?” It's like, that is indicative of our culture and how much we love to look at production of food and also moralize not eating it. Like think about–oh gosh. I'm like considering all of the content that comes up on Instagram and TikTok of people making food, but then restocking the food in their household and it's like, whoa. Like there is a lot of food content, but we never see people eating it unless it's something very specific. Like, do you know about mukbang?
CP: Oh, do I!
SB: What? I did not expect that. Wait, tell me, tell me what you know. Let's get into it.
CP: I will watch videos of people eating food to fall asleep all the time.
SB: But like, that is an exclusive experience where it's like, this channel is just for that and it's out of this like Korean tradition. Not a tradition, but like, from, I think 2010 is when it started. It’s just people interacting, but mostly like eating food in like very ASMR–
CP: –I was gonna say that. Feel it, It feels like part of like an ASMR umbrella.
SB: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But where do we see people just like regularly enjoying food in their content?
CP: Yeah. I will say like, it is, I am reminded time and time again of people's desire to just like, see food, hear about food free from those things. And I, there's a couple, like, instances recently I can think of where this came up.
One was: my shop has started this year doing like once a month, we call them fat chats, like little virtual discussion groups based on a topic. And at one of them a couple months ago we were talking about food. I think it was like part of our icebreaker or something, like if you would, if you could, had to eat one dessert only for the rest of your life, what would it be? Or something to that effect, you know?
And there's just a bunch of us just like talking about foods we like, and someone mentioned they were like, “Wow, it feels really different and good to be in a space where people are talking about food in a purely like joyful and like, kind of matter of fact, fun way without the negative connotation that feels like it comes up around desserts,” like when they're talking with people in their everyday life.
And that was a good reminder for me. ‘Cuz I'm lucky, Saraya, to be, you know, in conversation with you and lots of other fat folks who are happy to talk about food in a joyful way all the time. But that is not the norm for lots of people out there.
SB: Yeah. I mean, especially fat folks, but I think everybody.
# And that's just the way diet culture seeps into everyone's life, whether you're fat or not, you know?
SB: Which was why it was so nice. Again, teaser, but in our conversation with Casey, like this was the joyful part. This was something that is fun to think about. It's creative, it's a skill. It elicits a lot of, like, I think about the language we can use around food, and I hope you tune into that as well as everything else that Casey shares in our, in our interview.
CP: Can I just shout out you as someone who, like, I think we both like food. I like eating food. I like food of all kinds. You, the way that you like, prepare food, make food, like plate your food, talk about food is just like a lot more, I don't know. It's on another level and I just really–it really is, like in comparing you and I and like how I make and think about and consume food. You're on another level. And it is just–I mean, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I love when you cook for me and when I'm able to like, you know, be in your space and you make me meals, it is just like so special. And I think that I have really enjoyed in our friendship being able to see how you interact with food in all of those ways.
SB: I am blushing, right? ‘Cuz that's like, my goal. I really love making things for people. It is a production sometimes. Like I want it to be special. I think I got that from my mom or even hearing my mom talk about my grandmother, but, but isn't that like the best part of food, is the relationships that form around it?
I remember us talking with Nancy–was that season two?
CP: It was season two, right? Feels like forever ago.
SB: Yeah. Just about like food is emotional. It's undeniable. And like, we shouldn't disparage food being emotional, because it carries with it culture; and tradition; and a way to engage and be like present in our body; and have relationships with other people; and mark special occasions; and take notice of when things are not well with us in our relationship with food.
And I just, yeah. I'm so lucky to have a space where I can demonstrate that with you and other people. I think about Great British Bake-Off, one of my favorite shows, and I think it's because it's just people baking and showing off their talents with it, and there's very little food moralizing, other than the quality of it. Except there is one judge who always says, “Oh, it's worth the calories.” And I'm like–
CP: –Oh, I don’t like them.
SB: But it's like, wow. It took up until this one person for me to really realize that like, oh yeah, they don't talk about it that much.
So, you know, there's just so few–I guess all that is to say, there's so few venues where we get to enjoy this huge part of our lives ‘cause we have to eat to survive without a negative connotation associated with it, so.
CP: Well, what I wish for us to continue–and for everyone, you know, in our audience and everyone in the world–well, this is getting big. I just wish for all of us that we have more moments to be delighting in the joys of food and eating that are not bogged down with all of the negative messaging that we all work so hard to reject.
SB: And I–and I'll also state too, like, it's a privilege for me to be able to show up and like, have food and access to money. And I guess especially with the way that cost and inflation and everything is going, I think the way that people enjoy food is changing as well. So, just find joy where you can and how you ca.
CP: And if that comes from food, cool.
I feel like we've teased this interview enough. Yes, food comes up, but so much more. We're excited to share with you our interview with Casey Snow, who you might recognize by discoveringcasey on Instagram.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
CP: Casey, we are so excited that you're with us today.
CS: Thanks for having me!
CP: We get to start out by asking what we ask every guest, which is: Casey, what is your story as a matter of fat?
CS: What has fat, being fat meant to me throughout my life? Um, it's allowed me to be a fighter. It's allowed me to be myself. It's allowed me to understand that society is not fair. It's allowed me to be appreciative of what I do have and the community that I have been privileged and honored to be a part of.
I grew up being fat, and for the longest time, you know, I was treated like I was different; and different as in, you know, less than, or just not as good as the rest of the kids. It took me a long time to unlearn that, that I wasn't different; that we are all the same, you know, and we all deserve the same.
CP: The things that you're sharing are really great and I think will resonate really strongly with other folks in our audience.
CS: I just, being fat has meant different things throughout my life, and it hasn't been easy. And, you know, I think most fat people can relate that we've hated ourselves for a very, very long time. We've let ourselves become other people for the comfort of others for a very long time. And to finally be able to appreciate what fatness has given us, and that’s perspective; and, you know, and also life. And I think learning that, I wish kids could learn that early on so they could appreciate that life as a fat kid. Something that I didn't get to have. Instead of, you know, trying to be someone I wasn't and learning that as an adult, that being fat means I could also be happy, meant everything.
CP: You had shared that it took until your twenties to really find yourself, or get to know yourself. And I'm wondering like, what allowed for that to happen at that point in your life?
CS: I think through all the relationships, all the things that I've gone through, I finally broke and I finally had enough of just trying to be someone that I wasn't. And because that, that is a lot of work. It's a lot of work to try to be someone you're not for the comfort of others trying to–and it wasn't making me happy. And I wanted to be happy. And if that meant, you know, like I just–and also finding community, I think finding community really helped me move along that idea faster, that I could truly just be myself. That it was okay to be myself, that I could be accepted by being myself. Because for the longest time, even the closest relationships; friendships; family; you know, I never fully felt accepted. And to finally say, “I deserve that acceptance, I'm owed that acceptance,” you know, and putting myself first, I was finally able to just be happy and be me, and find myself and learn.
I mean, I'm still finding myself. I'm still learning every day. I haven't fully, like, that's why my page is called Discovering Casey, you know; ‘cuz I'm literally discovering myself every day. I'm learning about myself every day. I'm growing because I wasn't able, like as a kid, as a fat kid, you know, I wasn't able to grow and learn about myself until I was late, you know, in my late twenties.
So it's, it's a slow progress, you know, process. But there's, there's progress. It's happening every day and I'm, I'm so thankful for that.
SB: It's like the autonomy that comes in once you realize that you're, you're somewhat in charge of directing that happiness. I appreciate what you shared about finding community and the Discovering Casey part. Like if, if–to our listeners, if you haven't checked out Casey's Instagram and online handle, @discoveringcasey, it's really magnificent. And I was wondering if you could tell us about how you started creating content about fat liberation.
CS: So I started creating content on Discovering Casey–it started off with me literally just trying to find myself again. And then came a community. I was welcomed by the fat community and I saw that, especially larger plus sizes, larger fats, weren't getting the same representation as smaller and midfats.
And I felt like it was important to voice, you know, that experience and how we're still struggling. And, you know, when I first started, I was really excited about being a part of the fat community. It seemed like there was progress happening. Like plus size brands were coming, you know, coming out just every, it seemed like every day there was new lines and stuff.
And then it became stagnant, and it seemed like the progress only went so far. And it was really disappointing to see that, you know, and then also for half the community be told to settle for this progress when half of them didn't even get the accessibility, the options. And the community that it is today, I mean, it's disappointing actually. I see a lot of, a lot of people kind of go silent. Because, you know, they've tried to voice their experiences as larger fats, how we still don't have options. How we, like we can count on one hand, you know, the options that we have. And I've seen a lot of creators go silent because they've been berated for just saying like, “Hey, we want clothes too; we want, you know, space too. We want to be heard too.” And they're berated and told that, “Hey, you know, you do have, you do have representation” and, but we don't.
I feel like–oh, what was one of my quotes–like, I feel like the plus size community has just become another version of the straight size community with just a higher scale. And it makes me sad because like, when I first started, when I first entered this community, I was so hopeful, I felt so welcomed; and as a superfat now, I don't feel that anymore. I don't feel like I'm being heard. I don't feel like, you know, like that there's so many creators, other creators, like Saucye. Um, I don't know if you follow her.
CP: Yeah, of course.
CS: And I just, you know, watching her be silenced and not say anything anymore after her inclusivity thing and just be silenced for wanting the same things, just wanting the same things, not even as straight-sized people; wanting the same things as the smaller fats, just wanting that, just being happy with that and we can't even get that.
CP: Yeah. Casey, this reminds me of this tweet you had, which I think is what you were getting at. And I like, have saved this, I sent it to Saraya. I was like, “This, this, this, this!” You said:
“Dear small fats, what straight sized people did to body positivity is what you are doing to larger fat bodies: excluding them even in their own spaces.”
And that is just what you're speaking about, and I appreciate this. Like, I appreciate your outspokenness around this so much. And it's interesting too, ‘cuz like we covered Saucye West’s #fightforinclusivity a lot like last season and I hadn't realized–but like, I hadn't realized that she's like doing less online right now. But as you say that, I'm like, “Oh yeah, I have been seeing a lot less of her,” you know? And so, appreciate your insights around this.
And oh, it is just like, it is something that like, it must be so disheartening. I mean, it must be, and it is disheartening to see that only certain people are taking note of these things. Yeah. It's a hard space to be in, so I appreciate your outspokenness around all of this.
CS: Yeah. And I appreciate you guys listening and everything. And you know, like I just–you know, if you're not for the entire plus size community, if you're not for all fats, then who are you for? You're for yourself, you know? Like if you're, like it's, I, I just don't understand. And also like the fact that, why wouldn't you want superfats to get accessibility? You know? Why wouldn't you want them to have access when they get access, so do you? Like, I, I don't know why that's not understood. Like if, you know, they get access, if we get access, it's access for everybody.
CP: And then like this, like turning against each other, sort of like–okay, so like small fats and like super fats. Like, it's like, no. Like if we, I think what you're saying is if like folks banded together, it would benefit us all. But instead, there's time spent being upset with each other, and that is like, I'm sure it makes the powers that be very happy, right? Because instead of us banding together and pushing back, we're then spending our time and energy and frustration with one another. It's just very frustrating.
CS: I feel like large fats, superfats, infinity fats, we've been asking, “Hey, you know, can you guys step back? You know, like small fats, can you step back? Could you like, just sit down for a second? Could we, you know, have the platform?” And I feel like sometimes they fight back and feel like we're invalidating their experience and we're not, we're just asking for the same recognition that they have had for the past few years that we are still struggling for.
And you know, like, I also feel like, especially with social media, there's wanting to be relevant and stay relevant. But the thing is that their experiences are still relevant, and taking a step back and supporting larger fats and their experiences is validating their experience even more.
Like, I just don't understand why they just don't want to give up that space. Like, it's for everybody. Well, I kind of understand why they don't wanna give up that space.
CP: But bigger picture it's like, if what you say you care about is what you care about, then that would mean like, let's make space for everybody who's fat in these conversations.
CS: I mean, there's always the argument too, like, everyone's story is important. Everyone, you know–because anytime I call out like small fats or midfats or whatever, um, they're like, you know, “Everyone is a part of this. You know, like we should, we should all be grouping together.”
Well, if we were grouping together, large fats, superfats, infinity fats wouldn't have a problem. The problem is you aren't including us, you know. So it's like that, I don't know why you're arguing that.
CP: Yeah. Well, we appreciate your thoughts about this sharing here right now and what you've been sharing on social media, and it's a delight to talk to you for those reasons and others.
Specifically Casey, you're in the Midwest, but not in the Twin Cities, and we are a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities. So we wanted to check in with you and ask about like what, if any, like local community, local fat community exists, where you live and what your experiences in the Midwest have been like?
CS: Unfortunately, there really isn't a fat community. I would love if there was a fat community to be involved in where I'm at, but unfortunately there is not. Also being disabled, and usually confined to my home, makes that a little bit more difficult as well.
But, Midwest life. I mean, I was born in Wisconsin; I grew up between both Minnesota and Wisconsin. Midwest life, we have good cheese.
CP: (Laughs) Yeah, agree.
CS: We got good cheese. We know there's, there's a bar every, you know, certain block, you know, that kind of thing. But, you know, it's casserole, it’s hot dishes, you know what kind of–not too exciting.
SB: You hit the bingo board for Midwest just then though, so good job. Good job with that. No, and actually the thing about the fat community is interesting, ‘cuz I think more often than not, like, there isn't a super active fat community, or kind of ebbs and flows as we've learned from talking with other guests.
But then that other aspect of one, in a pandemic; two, like accessibility, to being with other people isn't, hasn't ever been readily available in my opinion, and so then I think it does come back to that online community, which, which you talked about. So I think it's been so helpful to just hear your experience, whether it be Midwest or virtual or whatever that looks like.
And I think one question that we always wanna talk through with any of our guests is like, what is bringing you joy? Because working in fat liberation, you know, I heard frustration, disappointment; I felt that myself. A whole slew of other emotions too. But like what is anything–it doesn't have to be related to this podcast or your work in fat liberation, but if it is, that's great, But what's bringing you joy Casey?
CS: Spicy potato taco from Taco Bell.
SB: Yes! (All laugh)
CS: You know, like just little things. I mean, obviously, my partner has been super supportive and I love them for everything that they have done for me in regards to being supportive of my fat liberation and also being disabled and stuff.
I mean, like, food has always been a huge joy for me. Cooking it, eating it, you know, watching it. I watch Chopped like constantly, so like, Chopped; Iron Chef America; you know, that kind of stuff. So that little stuff brings me, that brings me joy.
SB: What's your favorite summer recipe or dish to cook?
CS: Oh, shoot.
SB: Or a favorite. It doesn't have to be the favorite.
CS: I'm really good at soups, like soups and curries. I'm really good at, I just recently made a Thai green curry, coconut curry with pan-seared salmon that was marinated in pureed lemongrass, and then like udon noodles and stuff; and like, topped with cilantro, spring onions and peanuts and stuff.
CP: Oh, that sounds so, like, fresh and like hearty and good! That sounds so good.
CS: Yeah. I love cooking. I even have like–’cuz I am disabled, so like, sometimes it's hard for me to stand, I even have like a little burner on my coffee table so I can cook. If you cook in the living room, and if my partner’s able to help me–he's like my little sous chef, so.
CP: Oh, very sweet.
SB: I was gonna say you could cook along with the like shows that you're watching too, to some.
CS: I do do that, I do do that.
CP: Oh, that's so cool. Well, separate from food or maybe related to food, Casey, how can folks find you and any projects that you're working on or things that you want to share?
CS: @discoveringcasey on Instagram. Usually my posts of tweets, those are up first on Twitter, obviously, first. So–which is also @discoveringcasey. Um, I haven't been on TikTok as often as I would like to. Um, I just got over Covid. Um, I had pneumonia and everything, and that was a whole other thing.
Um, but I'm hoping to get back into that. So like basically TikTok, Instagram or Twitter @discoveringcasey. That is where you could find me.
CP: Wonderful. And we will link all of that for our audience in our show notes so they can find, they can quick click that and follow you on all the things.
CS: Sounds good. Thank you guys so much.
CP: Casey, thanks for telling your story–
Both: –as a matter of fat!
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
CP: I so appreciated that interview with Casey and, and I feel like there is just so much to discuss or so much–I know for me, there was so much of what they said that really spoke to me, so Saraya, I'm hoping we can debrief a little bit.
SB: Yeah, I would love to debrief. Uh, there's like a tone shift, right? Like we talked about food earlier in this episode, but everything that was said before that I think is what I hope people do carry with them after listening to this interview. Because we like to talk about community, we like to talk about fat liberation, and we get to do it in a way that's based in friendship. But I think one thing that really stood out to me is, you know, what is community if it's not lifting everybody up? What is, what is a fat community if it just like, stops at lifting up the people who are still most marginalized and most oppressed? And oh, that, that really sat with me.
CP: Um, yeah, it, it me too. And still is, and it's not as if that's something that we haven't addressed before on our podcast. I feel like we mention that fairly often. But it really felt different to hear Casey talk about it in like the very blunt and like, um, I don't know. The way they talked about it was so full of feeling, and I'm really like, so grateful that they were so vulnerable with us, um, and didn't mince their words around their thoughts on being left out of plus size community.
I'm so happy that they shared that with us, but also our audience. I think this is like, a good message. It's not just us saying like, superfat erasure, you know? It was really nice to hear–not nice, but I think it's impactful to hear that from more folks in this interview capacity.
SB: Yeah. I mean, especially since I think we are considered what, like smaller mid-fats probably.
CP: I'm definitely mid-fat.
SB: Then I'm probably mid-fat too. But like, what does it mean for us to say this all the time when there are people who, Casey specifically said platform, right? Like where is the platform? Who is like, stepping down so that we can be heard and we can center ourselves in this conversation?
And I, okay, so I guess another thing that came up for me is like, what is the type of platform that we need to elevate folks to? Because I am so glad to be able to be in conversation with people on our podcast, but I don't think our podcast is the type of platform that is actually going to like, change things on a huge structural level.
Like I wish it was. Maybe I'm downplaying–I don't think I am.
CP: No, I think after seeing the amount of listens that we have after five years, like we know that this is not like the, you know, viral, like mountains-moving, culture-changing podcast right here.
SB: It is changing people's lives in really specific ways, which is beautiful. I mean, it's changed our lives too, but, but not in the way that like, Casey's voice needs to be heard way beyond the airways of our listeners too.
CP: Yeah, I think that's a great question and I don't have the answers for that. I don't–what I do think is hard and what I'm so glad that they brought up was like how superfat, infinifat, larger fat folks in, you know, on and offline are like being silenced.
And the example they gave was Saucye West and her #fightforinclusivity that was so much like on my timeline last year, and we talked about that on the podcast, too. But until Casey mentioned that, it hadn't really occurred to me like, oh, I haven't seen a lot from Saucye lately, like her stuff comes up now and then, but it, I just–it was like, I guess I had thought, “Oh yeah, it's just the algorithm or whatever,” but I put it together after hearing that from Casey, like, “Oh no, I think that she's been talking less because of, I don't know, the how, how being more vocal was received.”
SB: It's also a lot of work.
CP: Thankless work. Unpaid work.
SB: To the point where I'm concerned. I'm sitting here after this interview thinking like, “Why aren't people’s silences louder for me? Why do I assume it's an algorithm or assume it's, or just like succumb to the noise of content creation that exists out there?”
I, yeah. I'm disappointed in myself for not realizing when people go silent, it's not always like, based on their terms. It might be because of the impact of them trying to do something and take on this huge sweeping platform. Does that make sense? Fight for inclusivity is what I'm referencing when I say that.
CP: No, it does make sense. And I like, I think that what's showing up here a little bit for us is, we are experiencing–or we're like perpetuating what happens a lot of the time, which is like, if it doesn't impact you directly, it's really easy for it to just get pushed to the wayside, you know?
For you, if you're not, if it's not something you have to confront on an everyday basis, you don't need to confront it. And often we don't, you know?
SB: Absolutely. Yeah.
CP: Yeah. I thought something that came up for me was like, like the idea of like, defending identity and then also like defensiveness, like as a theme throughout what Casey shared. And I feel like it popped up in a couple ways, and maybe I'm reaching here, you let me know what you think about this. But like, one way it came up is like, smaller fat folks, when confronted with larger folks saying, “Hey, excuse me. Can I, can we make room for us here?” The defensiveness with which smaller fats try to like, not allow that to happen?
I mean, it seems like that is palpable. Like it was, as Casey was explaining that, their words like were really powerful around that. And it's just like, why? I'm left to question like, why is that defensiveness there from smaller folks and like, what? I don't know. And I mean, they, they begin to address it.
SB: I have a thought.
CP: Oh yes. Go, go, go.
SB: I have a thought and I am plagiarizing from the Maintenance Phase podcast. Okay, so the Goop episode just released and you've listened to it, correct?
CP: I sure have.
SB: You're like, “Where is this going, Saraya?” Well, they did talk about, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow, and at one point she says, you know, “Nepotism kids have to fight like three times harder to make a name for ourselves and like show up that we're actually good at something than anybody else.” Which is like no, laughable. No baby. But then they also brought up this analogy that like people with privilege tend to be on like third base, and once they cross the home plate, they think that they hit it like a triple, but they didn't–they were already on third base. And I, I feel like it's similar to that.
It's like, oh, if you have some privilege, not more, but like, if you're looking at the path in front of you and you're like, “Oh, I'm fat–” I'll just take myself, for example. Like, yeah, I'm fat and I've had to deal with some things that are annoying and I've tried to educate myself on other things. But it's very easy for me to get caught up in my experiences so that once I get a modicum of support, I feel sated. I feel like, “Wow, this battle that has felt really thankless is over and like, woo, we can celebrate.”
But it's like, mm, can you celebrate? It's not different for anybody else yet. And I think it can be very easy to fall into that space of privilege because that's what you've been. That is what, like the measuring stick for what we're working for, but that's not it. I think it can be a false, a false promise of success, normalcy, love, like all of those other things.
I'm getting super abstract with this.
CP:: Okay. Can I go even more abstract and then I wanna come back to the idea of defending and defensiveness, ‘cause I have a couple more thoughts around that.
SB: Yes.
CP: But like, something that just occurred to me–wow. Go here with us, dear audience, and you Saraya, go with me here.
But like, as you were sharing that, something I was thinking about, like the example of folks who wear smaller plus sizes being excited that brands extend to a small plus size range. I–perhaps this is not a fair connection to draw, but as a shop owner, it's really hard for me to grapple with the statement that people often share, which is that “there's no ethical consumption under capitalism,” which I believe to be true and also is not a get out of jail free card in my opinion.
And I think that, I wonder if that's part of it where like, you know, smaller plus size people are like, “Oh yeah, the whole system's fucked, but like at least I have clothes for me. Sorry.” You know, and like, what that, what that says. That it's like, it's not, we wanna be patronizing brands that are offering like, some extended sizing and also like money talks.
And I, I wonder if there is an element of like, “Well it's all fucked so I'm just gonna do what, like buy what I want, do what I want. The world's crumbling anyway.” As part of that like, like the logic behind that and it's just like, there's so much that gets left out and there's so many who get left out when that approach is taken. I don't know. Is that a weird connection to draw?
SB: No, I think we talked about this a while ago, and I'm gonna totally mess up this, this like statement or sentiment, but it's like, let this despair or, or let this–do you know what I'm gonna say? Like, despair, radicalize you and not make you helpless or hopeless.
I think there's a different phrasing for it, but I, I wonder it's like, how much can that kind of suffering activate you until it depletes you?
CP: That's, whoa. Yep. That's like the second part of that sort of, right? Like, um, like we hope that that will happen, but how much–like how, how downtrodden can someone be, you know what I mean?
Like at some point it can just deplete you rather than radicalizing you or offering you the ability to be radicalized.
SB: Which I think of like infinifats or superfats. How much can you keep advocating for your dignity? I think that's what comes up too.
CP: When you shouldn't have to for one second ever.
SB: Exactly.
CP: You know, that's the thing when like, it's like not the same, but it's how I feel about paying medical bills. It's like, I shouldn't have to pay for this at all. Like, this is not how society should work. And so it is just like demoralizing to have to do it, right?
Yeah. When someone like, everyone should have access to, in this example clothing that works for them, right? And to have to remind people like, “Hey, excuse me, I can't like walk into a store and buy underwear that fits me.” My God. Like that is just so fricking demoralizing. It’s unfair.
SB: It is.
CP: I was gonna say, like, it kind of leads me back to this idea of like having to defend–
SB: –I was just gonna ask, how does this link with defensiveness and defending?
CP: But like, in the same way that it feels like small fats are defensive of the space that they're taking up and like not wanting to like, you know, give an inch at least in like the experiences that Casey shared, I feel like it then on the flip side requires super fat folks to literally defend their existence to folks within their community. And that's, I think like, the real kicker, or the part that is like the most tragic. It's like, I think as fat folks, like we might expect to have to defend our humanity to, in certain scenarios, right? But to have to defend that humanity to a fellow fat person? Oh, that is just so freaking demoralizing.
SB: Okay, so along with this, I was thinking about community a lot when Casey brought it up. And I was like, okay, so there's the fat community, but then also I'm part of like the progressive community to some extent, specifically through NLC. And I'm just thinking about all these really cool people also outside of NLC that have a lot of similar beliefs to me and how, I mean, we've talked about this so many times, but like antifat bias populates profusely.
CP: Real quick.
SB: Real quick. And how disappointed I am. And like, I ended up focusing on that more than focusing on the harm that's being done in like, the fat community by the same internalized oppressive tools and standards. And woof, what does it mean to have yourself so distracted and, like, trying to defend yourself in so many different spaces that you wanna belong in?
Like, and Casey also talked about having to figure out who you are. So like, not only are you trying to figure out who you are, but then where do you fit in and like, where can you get that support and what happens when that support isn't what you thought it was?
CP: Right. Right. Yeah. I feel I wanna talk a little bit more about what Casey shared about discovering who they are. But I wanna give, do, do we need to? I'm, it's like I'm apprehensive to move topics, and also it just feels like this issue, like we can't resolve it in this follow up of an interview on our lil’ podcast, you know?
SB: As opposed to every other one where we have solved every one. That's all I needed. Surprisingly, we haven’t impacted structural systemic change more.
CP: Shoot. Yeah. I just, I, I like, I guess I just wanted to name like, if this feels really unresolved and also, it will continue to be. But I wanted to, to lean into what you had mentioned about Casey, like talking about discovering themself.
I loved that and I actually found how they talked about that to be very inspirational and it really hit me. You know, just like sometimes we speak with people and their words are so simple, but so poignant. And I find like, depending upon where I'm at in life, impact me differently, and it really hit me in the season of my life.
And I love how Casey shared, like, they're still becoming who they are and like that informed the name of their Instagram handle discoveringcasey. And they're really just like figuring out who they are and like, sitting with that and like leaning into that experience, and I really appreciated that. Because I think for a long time, I felt like, “Oh no, I'm, I think I know who I am. Like I'm pretty sure I, I know what I want, who I am,” etc. And I think because a lot of transition is happening in my life, when I'm in a bit of a season of change, I'm realizing like, “Oh, Wouldn't it be nice to give myself some grace to like let myself discover different parts of me?” In ways that Casey is so freely doing. Um, and so yeah, there are words around that really inspired me.
SB: I think that's a good point because many people could benefit from that and, and freely doing so, but not easily. I don't think figuring out who you are and what you like or what you wanna try or beliefs that maybe you need to shed or adjust is easy to do.
But being open to discovering that and looking at it from a lens of interest and curiosity, that makes life a lot more doable.
CP: I think part of what also really spoke to me is that, like, that is how they framed their Instagram, so like, by default, so like, so to me that–oh, I just hit my mic, sorry–to me that means that they're like talking about this discovering process. And for me, as someone who tries to be like, I feel like I do share a lot of myself, but I'm very buttoned up in some ways and very, how do I describe it? Like, “This is it. This is how I feel and I'm not gonna change my mind, and I'm not gonna show you, I'm not gonna show you the process. I'm gonna show you the end result.” That's what it is.
That's very much I feel like who I am, or if I do show you the process, it's the very like, curated bit of the process that I choose to show you along the way versus like the messiness of it all. I'm not saying Casey's messy on their Instagram, but just this idea of like being, like it being in this discovering phase in a public way, I'm just, I'm clearly still thinking about. And you, knowing what you know about me, right? I'm sure you're like, “Uh-huh, surprise, this resonated.”
SB: Mm-hmm. No. For me right now, I'm just thinking about how much you do share, which is like, in my opinion, a lot. But that's how you've always, you've always been comfortable doing that and like that's been a community building tool I feel like for you. Not that what you share is just for a tool and leveraging things. It's not at all, but it's so interesting to hear you say, especially being your friend to be like, yeah. I don't share things, like I do have really specific boundaries of what I do, and I was like, “Oh my gosh. But you share so much compared to my boundaries.” My boundary is like a, a mile thick wall and yours is like, “Yeah, there's a, here's a fence and, and nobody can come in, but I will let you like visit from time to time.”
CP: “I'll let you see some stuff. But then there's some stuff going on over here on the side that is not visible. Because it cannot be. Nope.”
SB: No helicopters can see it. No angles, no paparazzi.
CP: Yeah. And I think maybe lately there's just like a bunch of stuff that's come up that's like, “Oh, yep, nope, this isn't shareable in, you know, in this way yet.” And so that's why I'm thinking that, gosh, sorry to make this Casey interview about me. I just like want to really honor what they said around this, like discoveringness of it all in terms of their identity and yeah, just share that, like it really spoke to me and inspired me.
SB: The power of putting that out there too. Okay. So Casey also talked about what they needed as a child, not having that, and so that discovering process is really like, woah, maybe this will impact somebody else's life in a positive way. And like talking about platform, it's like, well, if you're not given a platform, how will you change? And Casey's doing just that with Instagram and sharing what they can and what they want to. And so, just like, a big round of applause to that, because it does make a difference.
CP: Also too, related to Casey's insta, I don't know if we've talked about this on the pod–no, I talked to you about this–I think that Casey, like, the content they're sharing is, oh, it is so fricking cool. Not only is it like very bold statements, often like screen grabs of tweets around fat liberation; the photos they take; the fashion; like the very, like editorial, it's not–okay. Y'all know me. I take a picture for Instagram. It's me, hand on my hip, cheesin’. But like, Casey is doing like model shit. Like, like editorial level, like the outfits, the lighting, the, I just–I'm really inspired, also, by like their aesthetic on Instagram and um, yeah.
Oh, I just, yeah. I'm just clearly very into everything they're doing on the gram.
SB: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which if it hasn't been clear, like please go check them out. Please go check out their stuff. It's great.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
CP: It's time for the dirt and discourse. This is where we dive into the excitement and discomfort around relevant pop and cultural happenings. And in our fifth and final season, it feels fitting to share some dirt and discourse that relates to previous season's topics, and actually kind of aligns with some of the things that Casey mentioned in their interview. We are talking about Bloomchic.
Remember what we talked–Saraya, do you remember? Can you catch the people up to speed, what we talked about previously about Bloomchic?
SB: Yeah. Well, the reason–okay, I, it's like a whole whirlwind in my mind, so I don't know. Maybe you can help me parse it out. But the way it connects is we were talking about like Saucye West’s fight for inclusivity. I think this is kind of how we introduced it in our, in our episode before, right?
CP: They like, I felt like we covered both around or probably at the same, at the same time. I remember in Paxyshia’s episode a bunch of this came out and then some other elements of it came out in like preceding and subsequent episodes.
SB: Okay. Yeah. So it's around the same time. So that aligns with it. But then like, Bloomchic. How did this even come on your radar, Cat?
CP: Oh, it came on your radar, Saraya, ‘cause there was, was this like influencer dinner for Bloomchic and we were, okay. We were like, it was so–it like looked, the optics of it looked so beautiful, but we had some side eyes for a variety of reasons.
One, because it was one of those situations where it's like, hi, it's a pandemic and all of your servers have masks on and not one of y'all does, and that just like reads pretty gross to me. But two, at that time Bloomchic had a pretty small size range. Like I think it only went up to maybe size 24.
Actually, no, it was size 22, I remember. And we were like, so many side eyes. And also we knew, or knew of, some of the influencers who were there and we knew they wore larger sizes than that. And we just like, were thinking like, make it make sense. What is happening here?
So I remember you, pop culture queen, showed that to me and were like, sending me all these things on Instagram. Like, “And they were there, and they were there and look at that. Oh my gosh.”
SB: And also like, funny that I can't even remember that. That's where my mind is at at this point.
CP: I, it's been a pandemic. You are allowed to not remember that.
SB: Thank you. Thank you.
I think the other thing that was so curious to me is that you couldn't find the footprint for Bloomchic. It is like, a fast fashion ask for plus sizes trying to make these big claims about being the only one out there for plus sizes. Which I mean, like, true I guess. But when you would look at their Instagram or when you'd look at their website, it was really hard to figure out the background information.
So here I am, click clack mooing on LinkedIn, trying to figure out who's behind this. What is this? Is it by fat people for fat people? No, but it looks like it is because you've got all these influencers coming and like, actually organizing this event to make it real fun. But are the clothes fun? In my opinion, no, but yeah.
And so anyways, we had a whole episode on it where we talked about like, what is this? It seems like it's trying to launch, it's doing a lot of things and now I'm getting ads for it all the time.
CP: And there's, yeah, so it seems like it might be a nice little update moment for the dirt and discourse. I'll be honest, what brought this top of mind for me in addition to feeling like the relate, how it related with Casey bringing up Saucye in our interview–so my friend and coworker–oh can I get this tease and future guest on Matter of Fat?--Alejandra is very, a woman of the internet. Like you, Saraya, in many ways.
SB: Thanks. I dunno if I'm gonna put that on LinkedIn. I will say, you love to tease a future guest this season. I'm really enjoying this.
CP: Yeah. I've been doing it every single time, haven't I? Yeah, but it's like a little, it's not like a, “at the end, like stay tuned for.” It's like a, you gotta listen to the episode.
SB: You gotta do the work.
CP: You, you gotta pay attention.
SB: You gotta be in here. You gotta be in this. You can't be cleaning, you can't be dropping the kids off. You gotta be sitting at your desk taking notes. Like our assistant Lindsay, who is transcribing this right now.
Okay. I derailed this. Women on the internet.
CP: But I mean that in a way that like Alejandra pays such close attention to stuff, and just like, just knows a lot about like the fat world in ways that I sometimes miss, which is so nice to have her being like, “Hey, did you see this?” And she's more into TikTok than I am.
And she brought to my attention, there was this couple on TikTok that had done like a while ago, like a Bloomchic ad and then recently they posted a video and were like, “Hey friends. So we posted a video for Bloomchic, but we can't take it down for another hundred days based on our contract. But you know what our contract doesn't say? That we can't give you our opinions about it.” Um, and they said that there have been a lot of their like friends and followers who have been buying things from Bloomchic and having really bad experiences, specifically finding the return process to be difficult.
And I think the probably extension of that is like, confusion about sizing that is requiring them to do returns that aren't working out well. Getting like 50SB: back or 50SB: store credit or just different, their return process is a little bit funky. Um, so anyway, that brings up so many things. Like I feel like in that TikTok alone, there's like so much to unpack. And I was hoping we could do that.
SB: Yeah, let's get into it!
CP: Okay. So they did expand their size range. I remember last year when we were talking about this, like we had so many side eyes, like how are you gonna talk about being the cutting edge plus size anything and go up to size 22? Please.
SB: Well I think they said 22 on their Instagram, but then when we looked on the website at the time, it only went up to 20 or something like that.
CP: Yeah, it was, there was a discrepancy there. I had remembered that they said 24, but it was actually 22. But yes, something in the twenties, the low twenties. But they did expand their size range and now they go up to size 30, and I did some investigating in the size chart and y'all, it is a literal copy and paste of the current Torrid size chart.
So that means that like their measurements they claim are the same as Torrid measurements. And many of you are gonna be like, “Oh my God, this is old news.” But for some of you, this might be a nuance that you don't know, but how Torrid sizing works, like, the beginning of their size chart is really similar to what we would expect in a lot of plus size stuff.
So for instance, their 1 is a 1XL, which is a size 14-16, but as they go up, they break up their size chart. So it looks like it goes higher than it does in my opinion. So like for instance, A 3XL is a 22-24; a 4XL, however, is just a size 26. A 5XL is a size 28 and a 6XL is a size 30.
So they say, “Oh, we go to 6XL.” What I expect a 6XL to be is a 34-36. Like I expect a 4X to be a 26-28, a 5X to be a 30-32, and a 6X to be a 34-36. And that's not how they do it. That's also how Torrid does it and has been doing it for a very long time. Also, it might be noted that Torrid consistently does not have those larger sizes in store. That's a whole nother dirt and discourse.
But I thought it was curious that Bloomchic literally–
SB: –Does it say Torrid on it? ‘Cause that would be a good indicator. There's just like a bad Photoshop of it, blending in it out or something.
CP: Oh my God. That would be, I feel like we're gonna give 'em a little more credit than that. But no, I pulled them up next to each other and they are just like, every number is the same in terms of like, a size 22 should have like this measurement range of busts, this measurement of waist, this measurement of hips.
On the one hand I think it's smart because many folks are familiar with the Torrid size chart, but on the other hand I think that it is misguided because as mentioned, Torrid, while they say they go up to a 6XL, those larger sizes–4, 5, and 6X–are a little bit different. Allowing them to claim the higher size range without actually delivering.
So I think that's interesting. But then also if folks are like wanting to return a bunch of stuff, it must not be some, there must be something lost in communication here in terms of the sizing, and plus-size sizing is a whole, it's a whole thing. One that I look forward to offering Ted Talks about in the future. But like, I mean.
SB: What TED Talk?
CP: Maybe not TED Talks. Maybe just like, you know, week-long workshops.
SB: You could make it inspirational, I could see it happen. Anyways. Thank you. Yeah, I guess I, I'm a TED Talk does relate to more inspiration than in pure information and disdain.
CP: Yeah. Um, but I think that they're having a lot of return issues. And so on that video, it was mentioned that different folks had commented like, “Hey, Bloomchic, I'm having trouble with this.” Or like, commented to these creators like, “Hey, I was having issues.” And the creators would be like, “Hey, Bloomchic, could you check this out?” And there was a lack of like, customer service that was happening there.
But something we also learned about the return process that was shared, I think we shared this on the podcast actually, there was a little bit of drama that happened around this offline that I won't go into. But what Bloomchic does for their returns, they just cart them off to different places including plus-size resale shops who will take them as like a donation for them to sell.
So they're not–my sense is that a lot of those returns don't get put back out in circulation, but instead are like, earmarked for different places, including at least one that I know of, plus-size resale shops–not mine, not my plus-size resale shop.
SB: You were approached, weren't you? Maybe not.
CP: I sure was. Yeah, I sure was. Actually I, we talked trash about it and you said, “Cat, you should be careful about your words. ‘Cause they might wanna do that with you.” And I said, “Hell no.” And then they did reach out to me, and I would still say hell no.
But I think that that is part of like this big picture greenwashing that's happening. Like, we talked about this too. They're saying that like, “Wow, we're so cutting edge. Like we are fast fashion, but like in an ethical way.” And it's like, okay, but like are you though? I don't know if I buy it.
SB: Yeah. I also think this is backed by like venture capitalists and it's outta China. Like the, most of the people who work for this company as far as like, the C-suite folks are in China. So I–
CP: Yeah. Well, and I think that there was, part of the reason I think that, like that, I don't know for sure, but like that influencer dinner that happened that caught your eye and some of the other marketing around it felt like they were really talking the talk, saying a lot of the right things, and I think it's ‘cuz they had this person working for them who had done marketing for 11Honore and kinda knew how to talk that talk. And from what I can tell on LinkedIn, I don't know if she's there anymore. But also, I don't know for sure.
But wait, you said, Saraya, that they have been marketing too fast and furiously. What kind of ads are you seeing for Bloomchic?
SB: It is creators, right? Like, it'll show up on Instagram reels as something you would think is somebody just doing a try-on haul of clothes, but they're not. You see the little sponsor thing pop up at the bottom, but it's like, “Oh, what it looks like in person versus on in the photo.” And it's way better in person.
It's not, it all looks very cheap. And I don't necessarily have an eye for it, but it's also like the styles and colors aren't something that I'd be interested in going with either. And also knowing that it's fast fashion, I don't know. I'm just, it's not anything that I'm interested in enough to part my money with.
CP: You know, the ad that I see the most from them, that comes up quite a bit in reels, and I can tell, it's not like a–I can tell Bloomchic made it, like it's from Bloomchic–it's like someone trying on clothes, but in a very kind of produced way. But at the top it has like, that person's height and weight, but in centimeters and kilograms.
SB: Oh, interesting.
CP: Which I think is fascinating because it's like, okay, Bloomchic, how am I–someone who understands the metrics system, but does not use it, you know–how am I seeing this ad right now? Like, who are you, who are you here for? Who are you marketing to? Also, like how fricking declasse to like put someone's height and weight there?
It's like when you turn around tights and have to try to find your size on a tight size chart and it just has the height and weight and you're like, “This means nothing,” you know? Like you want measurements, you want info. It's just so bizarre to me.
But that is the ad that I'm continuing to get. It just makes me think like, what is your market really? Maybe they're trying to be more like, European-centered, you know, with their outreach.
But I'm just, I'm curious about that. And also like, rolling my eyes.
SB: Yeah. I don't know. I think that's part of it too, is a lot of the choices that are being made are so curious to us because they don't follow the marketing process that we're used to from other companies.
CP: They do, but they don't, I don't know. It's very interesting. And it's like, on the one hand like, you mentioned it's backed by venture capital. Like this is like a Chinese business person or like organization or company that's backing this and kind of footing the bill for this from what it seems like.
And on the one hand it's validating to know like, yeah, there is money in this, you know; but on the other hand it's so demoralizing. God, I feel like I've used demoralizing like five times this episode. Um, and still it is!
SB: Instead of like this episode brought to you by the number A or–number A, oh my goodness–the letter A, like Sesame Street, it’s demoralizing.
CP: But I that like, that this type of business, like, is operating in the way that it is and also is just like run by people who don't have a lot of stake or any stake in the fat experience.
SB: Okay, this is coming out of nowhere and like this is all alleged, right? Like we don't actually have, I just feel like I have to say that ‘cuz I'm not trying to get any type of legal heat from this. But this is–
CP: –Oh my God, I wish we'd get legal heat from this, don't you?
SB: Better not! Nope! [crosstalk]
SB: We do not have that podcast.
CP: Our little, our little fat cash, we got CP:70 in our Venmo right now. Thank you.
SB: Yes, thank you.
CP: Um, we can't defend that. Yes, but proceed. Sorry, what were you saying?
SB: So allegedly, I think this might make sense as to why their marketing and like, approach to getting this into the market seems so chaotic, is because if you type in Bloomchic into LinkedIn and you look at the people, there are so many past references to Bloomchic that are in marketing.
So any, if you have a lot of turnover in that specific space, especially if you're working with people who are in the U.S. market, who know and have those connections so that they can have influencer dinners, etc., if they turn over, like, what is your marketing plan? It can never be consistent. And so that makes a lot of sense. But also why is there so much turnover? I don't know anything about that field, maybe that's normal, but that seems not great.
CP: I don't know. This feels a little, it just, there's a–it feels like, you know, those reels recently that are really leaning into like red flags in like a partner. This feels like that, but in a business red flag.
SB: That was the entirety of our dirt discourse last time, so.
CP: I mean, honestly, like, I'm picturing like an entire, like not-very-cute cold shoulder dress that they've made comprised entirely of the red flags that we've seen from them.
SB: Okay, but that is a look. That would be a great Halloween costume. I'm into that actually.
CP: If Neno and I didn't already have our Halloween costumes, I would really–
SB: –Are you gonna, are you gonna soft launch the Halloween costume here on the podcast right now?
CP: No, I'll tell you, I'll tell you offline. We have to–well, this, I will say. Oh God, I will say a hint, but the hint, you will–you and perhaps audience will know what we're gonna be, but you cannot say.
SB: Okay. Okay. Okay.
CP: The hint is that I want Neno to let Paxyshia know what we're gonna be before we, before we talk about it with the world. And that should be enough for you to know.
SB: Okay. Okay. Okay.
CP: Um, but let's move on. Speaking of demoralizing, um, there's a couple other things that we wanted to mention as part of dirt and discourse, because I don't know if we will, if these things will still be in the zeitgeist when we get to our next fat dish.
Well, one is demoralizing and one is the opposite of demoralizing.
SB: There is hope, though. There is hope out there.
CP: There is hope. So let's do the worst first and then say the best part.
SB: Worst first. So as a woman of the internet, I immediately, and I don't know, maybe you had already seen this too Cat but I remember sending it to you ASAP. Because there was, on Twitter, Twitter was abuzz with, it was at the TIFF festival, like Cinema Festival. I'm probably saying that incorrectly, but there's been a resurgence to the career of Brendan Fraser through Darren Aronofsky's movie The Whale and wow. What, what a time. What a time.
CP: Woof. There's a lot to unpack here, which we won't get into, but we did wanna mention it. Saraya, tell the people what this is all about.
SB: Yeah. Well, I mean, I haven't seen the movie obviously, but the concept–very high-level and probably incorrect cause I haven't seen it–concept is that there is, I believe he's 600 pounds. Brendan Frazer dons a fat suit, which is interesting cuz he is not, he like–he is a fat man, um, to begin with–but dons a fat suit and plays this character, um, and people are giving him so many kudos, like a standing ovation. Everybody is so excited because of how his career has gone. He stood up for himself in a really difficult scenario in Hollywood, and after that, his career kind of faltered. So they're saying this is a renaissance for him, he's given an amazing performance, and also it just seems to confirm every negative stereotype and dehumanizing view of fat people.
CP: Right. It's like, why does this career resurgence for Brendan Fraser have to come at the expense of, like, literally every fat person?
SB: Including a fat person who's playing it, but then also donning a fat suit on top of it?
CP: Yeah. So it's just, it's, woof. And perhaps we'll have the opportunity to get into it more. Perhaps we won't care to.
SB: I'm not not gonna watch it. I’ve already drawn that line. You can if you want to.
CP: I don't know if I would. I would read some articles about it.
SB: Yeah. What was this? This was like, the Biggest Loser reboot. I think you were gonna watch it and I wasn't.
CP: I did not watch it. I couldn't do it.
SB: Good for you.
CP: Oh my God. That brings us back a couple seasons ago too. Did that happen? Oof. TBT. We’ll, we'll, we'll, we'll get back to this.
SB: There are a lot of really wonderful thought leaders who are like fat lib voices who had some good things to say about this. Um, so I will defer to them on Twitter. Maybe we can share some links in our show notes.
CP: That'd be great.
SB: And also it's just disgusting to see how people are writing about it, right? So like, I think it was someone at the New York Times and the way that they are describing, it's just like people who want to be disgusting and so cruel in their writing, and they're like, given a pension or like given free reign to do that because it is a fat person that's being portrayed. And so the writing out there about the character, about the movie is just disgusting.
CP: And I have like–and I know we don't wanna get into this too much–but like with that, my thought is like, perhaps that is one of like, no, what would it be like if there was actually someone who was like super fat identified who played that role, who didn't have prosthetics?
Like one, I think it's a fucked up thing to even do. But two, what if we had a fat actor doing that? Like how would people talk about them? And then my mind's like, “Oh, we saw that already. We saw that with Precious.” You know, like we, we, we've seen how that goes. Like the way people talk about people is disgusting. But I'm thinking like here with The Whale, it's like, maybe knowing that Brendan Fraser isn't, is a fat person, but is not that fat, gives people license to think, “Oh, we can talk about this character in this way because it's not an actual person.” When in fact there are people just like this all around.
SB: Right.
CP: Yikes. Okay. Can we talk about the not demoralizing thing that came on our radars this week?
SB: Absolutely.
CP: Aubrey Gordon is coming out with a new book!
SB: Yes! I got so excited when I saw it pop up. I did talk about Maintenance Phase earlier, which is an Aubrey Gordon–
CP: –That's also been something that I feel like has made its way into most episodes this season, a Maintenance Phase reference.
SB: Yeah. Oh, I thought you were gonna say, I don't think they talked about the book yet, but I'm really excited for it.
CP: What is the name of the book? It's a purple cover. I'm like realizing that I didn't write the name of it in here. It's like, “19 things–” Oh wait, where is it?
Oh, it's so small in the photo. Standby everyone.
SB: Well, I can also edit this, so that's fine.
CP: Okay. Um, um, Um, Um, Oh my God, it's taking so long to load. Standard. Oh, okay.
So the name of her book–I'm like, I remember this beautiful purple cover–it's, “You Just Need to Lose Weight, And 19 Other Myths about Fat People”. And it's coming out in January. Oh, Aubrey–
SB: –Birthday present.
CP: Oh yes, wait. It comes out January 10th.
SB: Mine is the 9th.
CP: I was gonna say like your birthday's right around there, right? Yes. Perfect. Your birthday will be the eve of this book release. I am so excited about it.
I'm also selfishly very curious to know who she will get to narrate it, and I wish she would, I should tweet her and see if she would consider, um, doing the audiobook herself. Cuz I was, it was weird to like, know her voice through Maintenance Phase, but then not hear her read her first book. So maybe I'll do a little tweeting about that.
SB: Hmm. Yeah. You, you tweet about that babe. I'm excited. I think it, I really enjoyed, she's just–I mean, she's an academic, even though it's not a black and white concept, the way that she's able to navigate the nuance of it is just laid out really beautifully. She does a good job of organizing her thoughts and so I think that's what's so satisfying when we get to read her books or like listen to her on the podcast.
CP: I agree. And you know what, y'all, the books coming out after Matter of Fat will have come to an end, so you won't hear our thoughts on the book.
SB: ‘Cuz none of us engage with the internet in any capacity.
CP: Ok. I feel like that's like that’s a lie, Saraya, between all of this you're gonna be sharing on Instagram every chapter, you'll be–
SB: –No, not to that, not to that level. I mean, but true. Like we won't have a debrief about it. So it is something fun to look forward to and also, yeah.
CP: But actually, Saraya, you and I will have a debrief, it just won't be on the pod.
SB: Anyways. Get, pre, pre-buy.
CP: Pre-order.
SB: That's what it is. Yeah.
CP: And we'll link to that in the shownotes, of course.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
SB: Welcome to the end of the episode.
CP: You made it to the end, where we share a little more info and a little more love.
If you want more from us, find us on Instagram at @matteroffatpod, or on our website at www.matteroffatpod.com. On our website, you will find show notes, transcripts–thanks Lindsay–info about Matter of Fat, links to all of our socials, access to older episodes and more.
CP: Including information about Fat Cash! If you love the pod and want to send us some monetary support, get into our Fat Cash. We are on Venmo at matteroffatpod. You also can find more information about this on our website.
SB: Yeah, and now we get to do shout-out time! Okay. Shout-out to Harry. You’re a real one. Your continued support is so appreciated and we love you, and the fat cash you recently sent our way makes a big difference. So thank you for that.
And then thank you to longtime listener and longer time friend Mykall for your recent review on Apple Podcast, it’s just really special and appreciate hearing your voice. So thank you so much.
CP: Yes, Big thanks to both of you. And y’all, dear audience, if you would like your name here at the end of our next episode, you know what to do. We'd love to share your name right here in two weeks if you're able to support us in either way.
SB: Yeah, that's never expected, but always appreciated. And so, uh, till next time when we're back for more Midwestern thoughts, friend discourse and discerning opinions–
Both: –As a matter of fat!
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
CP: We did it!
SB: Done! Woo-hoo!