S3M3 - MoF Mini: Body Positivity - Transcript
Released July 15th, 2020. For complete episode info, visit this page!
[POP INTRO THEME FADES IN]
Saraya Boghani: Welcome to a Matter of Fat mini!
Cat Polivoda: Just a little about a lot!
SB: As you may or may not know, Matter of Fat is a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities.
CP: We talk about a lot of different things on the pod, and sometimes use words, phrases, or concepts that might be unfamiliar or could use a deeper dive. We’re using this Matter of Fat mini to discuss body positivity.
SB: Before we break it down, we’re gonna break it to ya—by sharing who we are.
CP: I’m Cat Polivoda, a local fat feminist and shop owner—
SB: —and I’m Saraya Boghani, a fat, multiracial, Minneapolitan millennial.
CP: Y’know, two of your favorite fat, Midwestern mythbusters who are ready to dive into—
CP+SB: —body positivity!
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
SB: Body positivity is so buzzy! You see it slapped onto shirts and shampoos, and bandied about Instagram with abandon. It’s just so relieving that the world has accepted body positivity and fatphobia and sizeism are no more!
CP: (laughs) Ok, so for those of you who aren’t Minnesotan, that right there is a classic example of Minnesota passive aggression!
SB: I think I’ve perfected the art!
CP: Honestly, you have.
SB: Thank you.
CP: And you’ve used it here for good reason! So, body positivity is everywhere! Sure, it’s a positive movement and ALSO there’s a lot more to it—including lots of “Dirt and Discourse”-level critique that we’re excited to get into.
SB: The body positivity that we’re talking about today is a social movement rooted in the belief that all bodies deserve respect regardless of form, size, or appearance.
CP: The body positivity movement values body autonomy and can go beyond body size.
SB: It sounds great! It sounds like fat liberation, it sounds like another Matter of Fat mini that we’ve done.
CP: Right. Well, body positivity is rooted in body acceptance and fat liberation, which is why it shares so many similar themes.
SB: For sure. Ok, in our research, we came across The Body Positive, an organization that began using the term along with Deb Burgard, a founder of the Health at Every Size movement, in the mid-90s.
CP: The work of this org looks to be connected to the fat liberatory-roots of body positivity, but says itself in the FAQ that, “...in recent years, it has taken on a life of its own!” Which speaks to how the current use of body positivity has deviated from its origins.
SB: Exactly. The current body positivity movement only gets us so far. So, I suppose we’re going to break down how body positivity functions within and apart from its roots in those radical movements.
CP: I suppose we are! Let’s do it.
SB: Ok, so if you’re listening you know that we position ourselves as a “body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities”. We use “body positivity” right there in the tagline.
CP: Yup! And, we both also often feel like body positivity is trash!
SB: So let’s unpack that trash a little bit!
CP: For some, body positivity feels great. It’s a philosophy and movement giving folks permission to love themselves and push back against beauty standards or social pressures to change our bodies. For others, especially within fat liberation, body positivity feels like a commercialized, diluted version of a once radical movement—sometimes even doing more harm than good.
SB: Yes, which we will get into in detail in just a minute.
CP: Oh yeah, we’re getting there.
SB: And, quick Public Service Announcement: apologies if you came here for a love fest on body positivity and are surprised where this is headed. But, trust us, it’ll be worth it--it's what, like, 13 minutes of your time? And we’re actually quite fun? Um--(Cat laughs) I guess, hearing that, I don’t think fun people say they’re fun, but I think I’m fun. I think you’re fun. So we’re fun.
CP: (still laughing) I think you’re fun!
SB: We’ll figure it out. It’s worth it.
CP: Wow, fun people don’t say they’re fun. Ok well, at any rate, we are so happy you’re along for this ride.
While critique of body positivity is both valid and necessary, we maintain that it can serve an important purpose. Namely, body positivity can be an easier introduction into body acceptance and hopefully fat liberation.
SB: Right! Body positivity, from my perspective, is a fairly widely-known concept. It feels flowery, relatable, and not intimidating. It feels easy and sweet, and like something anyone can embrace without much fear of pushback.
CP: Body positivity also can extend beyond body size. So when we say, “all bodies deserve respect regardless of form, size, or appearance”, we’re also making space to push back against beauty standards generally.
SB: So, our decision to describe Matter of Fat as a “body positive podcast” is strategic. As a concept that is familiar to so many, it acts as an easier introduction to what the core of our work is: body acceptance and liberation.
CP: Yes. And, I’m not going to lie., part of this is about what the general public will respond well to.
I am constantly switching between “body positivity” and “fat liberation” when describing my work with Matter of Fat, or my shop, or other parts of my life—you know, it’s like, I try to assess the audience and consider what’s going to be better received. Or sometimes I find myself saying both as to not alienate folks who are unfamiliar with fat liberation or might be turned off by use of the word “fat”. Not because I’m embarrassed or want to hold back, but because I understand how important messaging is and, at the end of the day, I want to get as many people on this rad fat liberation train as possible--even if it means we like, get ‘em in with the body positivity, and have ‘em stick around for the fat liberation.
SB: Ah, we’ve revealed our magnificent plan! (Cat laughs) Also, we use the word “fat” in our podcast title, so it’s sort of obvious what we’re about, even in pun form.
CP: (laughs) And, there you have it! How body positivity can be helpful, and why we choose to incorporate it into our podcast messaging.
SB: But let’s get into the trashy-trash part! It’s always my favorite, the dirt part of the “Dirt and Discourse.”
First, there are the challenges with the theory of body positivity itself. BoPo, which it’s referenced as, is a warm invitation for everyone to love their body--and that’s such a nice thought, we shared that earlier. But to that, I ask the question: what if loving your body may not be possible? There are physical and sociological reasons we may not be able to love our bodies, and that should be okay. Body acceptance or even working to a neutral regard for your body is incredibly powerful with all the nonsense we’re conditioned to expect for ourselves.
CP: This isn’t to say that you can’t or shouldn’t love your body, I mean, that’s a beautiful thing! This is to say that sometimes we are in pain or carry trauma and having an expectation to love that pain and trauma is just a big ask. This is just one of the nuances as to why body positivity doesn’t really encompass all that it purports to.
SB: Mhmm. Taking the stance of being body positive means that you are not body negative, which still operates in a dichotomy of good or bad, when we are just so much more than that as individuals. Rachel Cohen-Rottenberg’s article, “Where Are All the Disabled People in the Body Positivity Campaigns?”, has a lot of great points and does emphasize this dichotomy. Cohen-Rottenberg asks, instead, “why can’t we just be good enough?”
CP: Yeah. That title is a perfect way to move into another question we have about body positivity: who gets lost in such an all-encompassing movement? When you think of body positive campaigns, for instance, who do you envision?
SB: Ok, so I envision the Dove “Real Beauty” campaign that came out in like high school or middle school for me. What I recall was like, 5 to 7 very smiley women, mostly white, young, skinny, and able-bodied, and they’re just in their underwear, smiling and laughing. I don’t know, I think it’s because that was my first introduction to mainstream body positivity. What comes to mind for you, Cat?
CP: Ok, I also think of those campaigns--especially considering, like you mentioned, kind of the beginning of this popularity and then also, like, the subsequent commercialization. More recently, I would also say that I think of mostly thin folks kind of sitting down and showing tummy rolls on Instagram and using hashtag #BodyPositive.
SB: Ah yes, Instagram, yup yup yup. This all puts forward a lot of implications on what is beautiful and what you can be positive about, and how fat acceptance has been distilled into a fashion and marketing and influencing prop through body positivity.
CP: Yeah! It takes away the political part of fat acceptance, and removes any identity because anyone can be body positive! Anyone can be positive about their body! It’s like that smiley, happy stuff that feels absolutely positionless other than to say, “You have a body, and this product will make you feel happy if you use it”.
SB: Body positivity ignores why and how we as whole people experience the world. It ignores how our identities exist with each other. It ignores how fat, disabled, queer, and/or indigenous, Black, and non-Black people of color are told their bodies are or are not good in the first place.
CP: So if fat liberation or acceptance is about changing policy and institutional body censure, what is body positivity doing? It’s akin--and of course, not the same as--but akin to being “color blind” to race. You know, when people think, “I don’t actually need to assess or understand how different bodies are treated and experience the world, we should just all be happy”. It speaks to this like, doing more harm than good, that we mentioned.
SB: Disgusting. Some people still use the term body positivity so it isn’t completely devoid of, and removed from, its fat acceptance roots, much like we shared we do earlier. That being said, we need to call in everyone, including ourselves, who uses BoPo to assess how it isn’t centering those identities I mentioned before, but also and especially superfat folks within the fat acceptance movement.
Caleb Luna’s article, “Superfat Erasure: 4 Ways Smaller Fat Bodies Crowd the Conversation”, does an excellent job of asking us what it means to have smaller fat people be the ones in conversation and the face of body positivity and fat acceptance. Focusing on smaller fat people is still confirming the idea of what fatness should look like, what is acceptable. As Luna shared, quote: “It erases who bears the brunt of fat stigma and fat antagonism”. Gross.
CP: Exactly! Who are the faces of the body positivity movement and what’s behind them? I see a lot of white, conventionally-attractive women representing the movement.
Though I will say. sure, generally we are seeing more and more body diversity in advertising, which can feel good. And also, it can feel gross when you consider what’s often behind corporate decisions to do that.
SB: I mean that part! Ok, seeing ourselves in media is meaningful, but Amanda Mull’s piece for Vox perfectly encapsulates that gross feeling that Cat shared.
In “Body Positivity is a Scam”—what a bold title, by the way—she writes, quote: “Corporate interests have a clear opening to insert themselves into the fray and emerge as heroes simply by hiring an ad agency or casting director who can read the room, and without changing their business’s treatment of anyone”.
CP: Woof.
SB: I mean, body positivity is popular, and people are out here trying to make money.
CP: Yeah! Here, trying to make money without making any tangible changes.
SB: That’s pretty bleak.
CP: That’s kind of our brand at this point, right? (laughs)
SB: (laughs) Oh my God, yeah.
CP: We talk about things critically, and then get to a point that might be overwhelming or feel beyond individual action. But don’t worry, we’ve got some next steps for you!
SB: Because it is such a big movement, I mean—honestly, I say take what you need from body positivity and leave or challenge the rest.
CP: Yes.
SB: The best way to implement this is through critical consumption. Who is using body positivity, and why, and what impact does it have on you and the world? This is especially key when someone is selling something, or you’re not sure the desired outcome of what is being presented to you. It’s just savvy information consumption at play!
CP: Yeah. You can also use body positivity like we do--as a feel-good entry point into more thoughtful reflection. It can be a good way into deeper work around body acceptance, fat liberation, and dismantling white supremacy.
SB: If you have friends who are excited about body positivity but shy away from other liberatory philosophies and actions, use BoPo as a platform to bring up questions about body acceptance and liberation, disability justice, racial, and gender justice.
CP: Or if you’re excited about body positivity but the rest of this feels, I don’t know, a little overwhelming? Honor the fact that you’ve positioned yourself in a place for further learning.
SB: Honestly, that’s where I started, and now we’re here, with a podcast.
CP: A podcast, baybeeee! (Both laugh)
SB: It just goes to show that body positivity is just one, imperfect part of larger sustainable change.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
SB: So, Cat, did we BUST the myth of body positivity?
CP: Ok, while I don’t know if it’s a myth, we did BUST OPEN the movement with more info about how it can be used, and how to proceed with caution.
SB: That’s our goal—you can enjoy this brief insight, share it with others, and better understand body positivity and its impact on your life.
CP: If you want more, check our show notes for links to research and resources for this minisode.
SB: Yep, you’ll find those at matteroffatpod.com along with other episodes, transcripts, and more!
CP: And, if you’d be so kind, subscribe to Matter of Fat on whatever platform you like!
SB: We’ll catch you next time for more—
CP+SB: —Matter of Fat!
[OUTRO MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
-END-