S3M2 - MoF Mini: Fatphobia - Transcript
Released July 1st, 2020. For complete episode info, visit this page!
[POP INTRO THEME FADES IN]
Saraya Boghani: Welcome to a Matter of Fat mini!
Cat Polivoda: A lil’ treat for your ears!
SB: As you may or may not know, Matter of Fat is a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities.
CP: We talk about a lot of different things on the pod, and sometimes use words, phrases, or concepts that may be unfamiliar, or could use a deeper dive. We’re using this Matter of Fat Mini to break down fatphobia.
SB: But first, let us introduce ourselves!
CP: I’m Cat Polivoda, a local fat feminist and shop owner—
SB: —and I’m Saraya Boghani, a fat, multiracial, Minneapolitan millennial.
CP: Y’know, two of your favorite fat, Midwestern friends who are ready to dive into—
CP+SB: —fatphobia!
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SB: Let’s start with some definitions! Y’know, as one does. It worked for my sixth grade history paper, and I’m gonna stick with it! (Cat laughs)
So, fatphobia. Fatphobia is the fear and dislike of fat people, and the stigmatization of individuals with bigger bodies.
CP: Fatphobia is closely related to weight stigma and sizeism. Fatphobia and weight stigma can sometimes be used interchangeably, while we might consider sizeism to be the umbrella under which both of these terms live. Weight stigma refers to negative attitudes and behavior made towards fat people.
SB: And sizeism is defined as “prejudice or discrimination on the grounds of a person's size.” So, in addition to weight, sizeism speaks to other parts of someone's body including height, stature, muscle mass, and skeletal size. That’s why we would say fatphobia and weight stigma are forms of sizeism, but sizeism extends beyond fatness.
CP: Right. Fatphobia denies larger people the same humanity given to smaller people. Negative attitudes, stereotypes, and biases don’t just live in people’s minds, they inform how they treat fat people around them, and internalized fatphobia impacts how fat folks feel about themselves--ourselves!
SB: Exactly! It most negatively impacts fat people, but my guess is that you, dear friend of Matter of Fat, have felt negatively about your body at some point in your life regardless of your body size. That’s what makes it bigger than just personal issues—like all forms of oppression, fatphobia is a system. We at MOF think that the It Gets Fatter project described this perfectly in their piece called “Avoiding Fatphobia and Sizeism in Health Care.”
CP: Yes, here’s how they break it down. They say, quote:
“As with any system designed to exclude, shame or oppress people on the basis of shared characteristics or identities, it can be easy to assume that something like fatphobia only exists on an individual level. In reality, it is layers of complex beliefs and institutional systems that treat fat bodies in need of correction and discipline—sometimes through violent means. Fatphobia can end up shaming, silencing and correcting fat people simply for existing”
SB: And the “layers of complex beliefs and institutional systems” in our US cultural practices are shaped by larger historical contexts. What does that even mean, right? Well, we’re gonna talk about how the transatlantic slave trade and Nazi-era eugenics contributed to fatphobia as we know it today. Didn’t expect that, didja?
CP: Oh, ya know, just some light background info!
SB: Uh-huh! This did not end up in my sixth grade essays, but it should have!
CP: Yes!
SB: We want to credit Sabrina Strings and her foundational research around this topic from her 2019 book Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fat Phobia. She shares that thinness only became a mainstream ideal in the U.S. in the early nineteenth century, and this thin idolization precedes the medical establishment’s concerns about weight by nearly one hundred years! She finds that fatphobia isn’t based on health concerns at all, but actually is rooted in the transatlantic slave trade and Protestantism. Woof, ok, we called it a mini episode folks, but it packs a punch!
CP: Pow-POW! The punch has been packed! (Both laugh)
She says that by the early nineteenth century, particularly in the U.S., fatness was deemed evidence of immorality and racial inferiority. She says, quote, “the transatlantic slave trade, colonists, and race scientists suggested that black people were sensuous and thus prone to sexual and oral excesses.” And then, she also cites Protestantism, which encouraged resisting pleasures, including those of the palate.
SB: Ugh. Ok, so these very persistent beliefs mark people and their bodies as “inferior” as opposed to the “proper” American body--or, the proper Aryan body, because all of this is connected to eugenics and some master race Nazi nonsense.
CP: What’s scary is that science and research done on bodies, mostly by white men, throughout the twentieth century was informed by this narrative about fatness that Strings cites came into our collective consciousness a century before.
SB: Shannon Webber’s 2017 article “Pure Evil: The Entwined History of White Supremacy and Fat Hatred” reminds us that, quote, “This use of distorted science to confirm preexisting biases is what helped propel the popularity of eugenics well into the twentieth century, resulting in mass atrocities such as the forced sterilization of Black, Puerto Rican, and Indigenous women and people with disabilities, as well as the psychiatric torture, incarceration, and murder of queer and trans people.”
CP: It’s just so vile.
SB: But it’s necessary to know this information, to see how these beliefs run deep and are woven into the threads of our culture, and to better understand the special kinds of fatphobia and weight stigma perpetrated today.
CP: Fatphobia is so deeply a part of our culture that sometimes it might even be difficult for some folks to see it. But, the examples are everywhere.
SB: Bias against fat people often shows up in medicine, the health and wellness industry, in the workplace, in the fashion industry, among so many other places. Also, intersecting identities can increase bias experienced by fat people. We can’t forget that.
CP: Right, even though there’s research documenting weight discrimination, under the U.S. Constitution and federal law, it’s legal to discriminate on the basis of weight in nearly every state in the U.S.
SB: While over half of the U.S. wears plus-sizes, there is considerably less plus-size clothing available compared to straight-sizes. It’s a basic human dignity to be able to safely and comfortably clothe yourself.
CP: Exactly!
SB: We also see fatphobia all over the medical industry. You or someone you know has gone to the doctor and not had their health issues addressed, but did receive weight loss information regardless of the initial reason for the visit.
CP: Yeah! Fatphobia in healthcare also leads to larger people being over-diagnosed with certain health conditions and, on the flip side, smaller people being under-diagnosed.
SB: It’s also medical bias and misguided beliefs about fatness and health that can lead to all types of people, not just medical professionals, using fatphobia to justify mistreatment. Virgie Tovar emphasizes that, quote, “Many folks believe that fatphobia isn’t bigotry but a form of concern - wrong!”
CP: Right! Well, wrong! I mean, I agree! It’s rarely ever a concern for someone’s actual health and well-being that motivates comments encouraging weight loss. Like we just discussed, stigma against fat bodies predates the pathologizing of fatness.
SB: Not to mention, there’s a growing body of research about how being fat is not necessarily bad for your health. Coupled with the stats about how unsustainable weight loss is, it’s clear that there’s a lot more bigotry than concern behind a comment about “losing weight for your health”.
CP: Yeah. Fatphobia lives everywhere. These are just a few examples that will hopefully get you thinking about how ever-present it is.
SB: And in instances of fatphobia, there are direct consequences, and there are also what Gillian Brown refers to, in her “Tools For Understanding and Dismantling Weight Stigma and Fatphobia”, as “after effects”. Basically, quote, “weight stigma and fatphobia victimize fat people, and create a societal norm whereby it is acceptable, and indeed expected, for fat people to be stigmatized against.”
CP: Like, when we hear a fat joke on a Netflix show. There’s that immediate impact on a fat person hearing it and feeling the pain associated with that slight. Then, there’s the bigger implications that allow everyone watching it to make assumptions about fat folks playing into stereotypes. So, in instances of fatophobia, there’s an initial injustice or inhumanity in the moment, but then also, this bigger cultural system is maintained!
SB: And part of that is the nefarious internalized fatphobia. It messes with our self worth, and would have us believe that we deserve the mistreatment we’re subjected to. Not only does it feed into anxiety, depression, and other health impacts, it basically has us policing ourselves and helping to uphold systemic fatphobia. If I say disparaging things about myself, it will only affirm someone else’s ability to do the same, or worse.
CP: Again, we need to remind you that while fatphobia impacts fat people most severely, it has negative impacts on everyone.
SB: Everyone! Saying it again, for the people in the back. Yes, you in the corner, you over there, this impacts you, and your whole family—everyone you know.
CP: (laughs) True! Weight stigma and fatphobia cause thin people to fear becoming fat, sometimes to the point where they’ll stay thin at all costs. Fatphobia underpins a lot of the messaging everyone with a body is exposed to--messaging telling us that we aren’t thin enough, pretty enough, lean enough, chic enough--I mean, the list goes on and on!
SB: And on, and on, and on. When asked about her research’s significance for thin people, men, and/or fat people who aren’t Black, Sabrina Strings—
CP: —remember her from earlier—
SB: —gotta do a callback! Strings gets asked this a lot and shared, quote: “My response is that fat phobia affects everyone. Even if Black women have historically formed the center of concern, the goal of race scientists, Protestant reformers and, later, doctors was to convince all Americans that being fat was a woeful state of affairs that all should shun. In this way, regardless of racial or gender identity in America today, we are all encouraged to avoid becoming fat. The stakes are evident: Thinness is privileged, and fatness is stigmatized.”
CP: Yes, fatphobia impacts everyone. Including, of course, us! Saraya, what are some impacts of fatphobia in your life?
SB: I mean like, where to start, right? I guess I would say the limiting beliefs about what I can and cannot do based on my body have stopped me from making life choices. I know that’s kind of vague, but I’ve got a litany of concrete examples of overt fatphobia I’ve dealt with, and I’ve shared those on other episodes, so I would suggest tuning in to that if you’re interested to hear more. I wouldn’t be talking about this right now if it didn’t impact me deeply.
CP: Right. One thing I’ll share is that, as an adult, I look back on messages that surrounded me as a child with new eyes and can kinda connect those things to my own internalized fatphobia. Remember when we saw Fattitude the Movie? The first part was this rapid image flash of fat stereotypes being played out in well-known cartoons and beloved kids programs. Watching that, I realized these were things I just consumed and enjoyed without question for most of my childhood and young adult life. That shit lives in me and is what I’m working actively to unlearn.
SB: We learn and embed so much from one another and society! However, like Cat said, there are ways to unlearn or rework our understanding of the world. We’re not going to be able to list all the ways to do this work, but we’ve got some initial thoughts for you.
CP: First, you gotta start with yourself. Ask yourself: what are your beliefs about fat people? When it comes to fatphobia, weight stigma and sizeism, where are you in that learning and unlearning process? How do you talk and think about your body? How do you talk about other people’s bodies? And what can you do to recognize and interrupt fatphobic thoughts and language?
SB: For example, do you believe that a good, successful and fulfilling life corresponds to how much your body weighs? Will it be comprehensively better if you are thinner, or worse if you are fatter? That’s internalized fatphobia in action.
CP: Mhmm. Something simple but powerful you can do is change your media consumption. You’re in charge! You can curate what you’re seeing and digesting on a daily basis! So, follow fat folks! Follow those holding identities that you don’t often see in mainstream media! You can diversify your social media feeds. This can interrupt inner narratives, and expose you to other people. Oh, and also--you can UNAPOLOGETICALLY unfollow folks who allow fatphobia to inform what they’re sharing.
SB: Yes! Exactly. Self-education and knowing that others are doing this work is so important. I mean that’s really the next level right? You start with yourself, but what about community and networks? How are the people around you talking about fatphobia? How are they talking about racism, sexism, disability, and LGBTQIA issues?
CP: Yeah, what does it mean to hear fatphobic or other icky things on a regular basis? Where are opportunities to challenge or push back? Like, for instance, reminding folks, perhaps, that while there are lots of ways for certain political officials to be awful, their body size is not what makes them terrible at their job.
SB: Yeah, exactly. And also, that might not always be a possibility. It might not be safe for you to do things like that. So, what about creating/ joining a new community, or even supporting people who actively dismantle fatphobia?
Some cities have their own fat communities that you can join through social media. There are more and more body acceptance writers and podcasts—wink, wink—that have audiences that have a shared set of interests. Also like, good job, you’re doing great sweetie. Another example is [Lindo] Bacon’s “Health at Every Size” which is a wonderful resource and you can search for medical professionals who incorporate this ideology into their practice.
CP: And we have to talk about the bigger picture. What does systemic change look like? It looks like legal protections so people’s livelihoods aren’t jeopardized due to their size. It looks like medical institutions changing policies and practices that are based on inappropriate measures--ahem, like the BMI, which is basically nonsense!
SB: These bigger things are harder to tackle and changing a whole cultural system entrenched in oppressive history can be overwhelming.
CP: Yeah.
SB: That being said, we’d like to close with a quote from Black feminist culture editor, writer, and scholar Evette Dionne. Quote, “There is nothing wrong with wanting to be affirmed by people who understand how crucial it is to love your body as it is. In fact, there’s an entire history of people who’ve done exactly that and fought for the dignity of fat people. You can learn that history and then carry on that legacy. In fact, the movement has been waiting for you all along.”
CP: Oh, it’s so beautiful!
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SB: And thus, in summary, I conclude my review of fatphobia.
CP: (laughs) Ok, I know we researched a lot for this, Saraya, but I hope this is like, at least a little different than your sixth grade report.
SB: I was very advanced for a sixth grader, but I get your point, and you’re absolutely right. I just want to emphasize that I enjoyed learning and putting together this minisode and I hope you all do too!
CP: That’s our goal--you can enjoy this little tidbit, share it with others, and better understand fatphobia and its impact on your life.
SB: So if you want more, check our show notes for links to research and resources for this minisode.
CP: Yep, you’ll find those at matteroffatpod.com along with other episodes, transcripts, and more!
SB: And if you’d be so kind, subscribe to MoF on whatever platform you like!
CP: We’ll catch you next time for more--
C+S: —Matter of Fat!
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