S4E6 - J Aprileo, Tumblr, + Fat Disappointments- Transcript

Released on June 23rd, 2021. For complete episode info, visit this page!

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Cat Polivoda: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body-positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities. 

Hi, I'm Cat Polivoda, a local fat feminist, shop owner, and okay, I'm happy to report that I've taken my first dip in a Minnesota lake this summer. I'm joined by my co-host and producer. Saraya Boghani. 

Saraya Boghani: Hi, I'm Saraya. I'm a fat, multiracial, Minneapolitan millennial who is eager to reap the benefits of my little balcony vegetable garden.

CP: On Matter of Fat, we talk about the cultural politics of fat liberation with a Midwest perspective. 

SB: Yeah. And on this episode, we're diving into who or what prompted our digital fat lib progression, we interviewed J Aprileo of Comfy Fat Travels, and get a little disappointed in the dirt and discourse all as—

CP +SB: —A Matter of Fat.

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CP: Before we get into our interview with J, we wanted to chat about something that actually came up, um, at the beginning of the interview, when J shared their story as a Matter of Fat. They talked about how they really found a fat community on Tumblr back in the day, and that of course really resonated with Saraya and I, because we did too.

Uh, so we thought we would talk about like who and what kind of prompted our body positive journeys and moving into fat liberation when we were in that kind of Tumblr era, scrolling and liking and resharing. 

SB: Oh my gosh. Tumblr is the time capsule that I didn't know I was creating back in the day. It's just, it's like a, a proto-social media in my mind because the things that Twitter and Instagram are used for now, that was Twitter back then, as well as Facebook and everything. It was everything I could ever want in that time in my life, and so going back into it just felt pretty surreal. Cause we both dived into our old Twitters—not Twitter, sorry, Tumblrs—in anticipation for this conversation. What was it like when you looked through yours?

CP: It was wild and like Tumblr shows you, um, like how many days back it is. And so I'm scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, and it's like, 3,174 and like doing math, like “What? Oh yeah. Okay. That was eight years ago.” 

Um, it was wild. I actually, you know, I found, I, it was not what I expected. I remember Tumblr being such a very like, fat space for me, but I looked at what I was sharing on Tumblr—I was not creating any of my own content—but I was looking at what I was sharing and it was not as much fat stuff. I mean, there was fat stuff to be sure, but it was like a lot of, I don't know, political stuff and like history you didn't learn about in school. And, um, some like Wishbone memes and just like weird stuff. (Saraya laughs)

And then I guess, like when I looked at my likes, cause you can see your likes as well. I saw a lot more fat stuff there. So I wonder what that's about that I'm like, liking every fat thing that came across my feed, but sharing it, you know, that wasn't every post I shared. Um, but your, yours Saraya, you had, like aesthetics!

SB: I was aesthetic. Um, it kind of surprised me actually, because where you were just like reposting all of these different things, I was not judicious, but like I was curating I guess, but I didn't even realize it at the time. Like my Tumblr page was not for anybody else. I didn't think anybody was really following it. It was really just um, a place for me to, I guess, do like, I don't know—I've never done a vision board or anything like that, and I haven't done a lot of collaging my life, but as I look through it, it has a big feel to it, of, um, that kind of energy of just things that spark interest or inspire me, or are like pretty visually interesting, and then I go over to my likes and it's a lot more articles or quotes or. Uh, I don't know, weird stuff that you find on the internet. 

And it's just so funny to look back at it and be like, oh, I'm still very much this person. But at the same time, I was reposting stuff from people that I didn't know at the time that now are, are common, common names and common creators, especially about fat stuff too.

And so I think as I'm looking back at Tumblr—so, I don't know, obviously we're millennials, we say that at the top of the show, but when I was in college and then shortly out of college, when I was using Tumblr the most, and it was a time where I was feeling very isolated and removed from other people, because I was in college with lots of different people, lots of different ideas, getting really stimulated in conversations and developing my politic and all of these good things.

And then once I left college. I didn't have those people around me anymore. I didn't have the time because I was just working all the time. And so Tumblr was a refuge where, when I was like depressed or out of energy, I could just sit there and scroll and like, find community or like expand my boundaries of knowledge without putting a lot of effort forth. And I think that has, oof, set some really big things in motion for us to be literally talking about it right now and interviewing the people that we interviewed too. It's just, it's kind of a wild progression timeline to look at. How did you use Tumblr back in the day?

CP: Kind of similarly? Well, okay. So when I said, like, this is like, you know, eight to ten years ago that I was very active on Tumblr, that would put me, it would be like—the year was 2011 to 2013 when I was in grad school and working in Texas. And, um, yeah, I think like, there was a little, you kind of spoke to like life transition after college, I think that was part of it for me too, I was like in a different place. Um, and I just remember like laying in bed at night, playing Words with Friends, cheating always, and then scroll in Tumblr. 

SB: You cheated?

CP: Always. Always!

SB: I cannot! I just, do we need to say sorry to someone on here. I know you're mostly Jamie Glover. 

CP: I feel like you to a lot of people, I didn't know, but then, or like just like bots or whatever, but Jamie Glover from Hamline, we would play Words with Friends for years when I was, when I was in Texas. 

SB: I love Jamie. Jamie was my neighbor for a little bit back in the day in the dorms. Love Jamie. I can't believe you played Jamie. 

CP: I, sorry, sorry. Um, so I guess yes, kind of similarly, and I, I think, um, I don't know, just I was—so in preparation for this episode, I was trying to remember the accounts I followed and that's why I was scrolling so far back. Um, and there were some people I just like couldn't find, or couldn't think of, but I like can picture them in my mind. 

But I do think it might be fun to like, mention some of the, I dunno, the accounts and the people that, like, I remember the most, um, which would always—like GabiFresh is like, in my mind, like the original, like she is the first fat fashion person I ever followed ever, um, and really just like, I don't know, she sucked me in, she was amazing. And I remember it's so wild to see her now just, and she has so much success and is so professional in like, her pursuits. Um, but I remember just outfit pictures of her in her living room in Chicago. And it's like, oh my gosh, that was forever ago.

Um, yeah, I think, yeah, marfmallow and this person whose name is well, I found them on Instagram. Their name is Kina Butta and I forget like what their handle was. Um, I followed this account called Fat Feminist Fetish a lot. There was that like fancy, now their name is Fancy Bidet, someone named Natalie from Australia who I think you followed as well.

SB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really cool art that they would put out. 

CP: Yeah! And there was this person who I—truly much of my scrolling was spent trying to find this person. I can like see them so clearly in my mind. Um, but I could not find their Tumblr and I could not find their Instagram, even though I know I do follow their Insta. They're like, um, I don't know. What I remember most about them is that they had a “Riots Not Diets” tattoo on like their chest, like not the middle, but like the side kind of by their heart. And I just remember thinking, “That is the most radical thing I could ever imagine!” And just, yeah, I loved it. 

So I think those are some of the, the folks that I was paying attention to, but to your point, like I was scrolling through old likes and old reshares and I saw a lot of people that to your point, like, I didn't know quite who they were at the time, but there are people that I follow now, or also—oh my God I have to mention. I reshared a bunch of pictures of Paxyshia who works with me now at Cake, before I ever knew she was as a person. Um, so it was, yes, that's just like one example of people I'm finding and recognizing as I'm scrolling through these things that I reshared, you know, 8, 9, 10 years ago. 

SB: Oh my gosh. I also think about, um, like I, when I was looking back, I had reposted a bunch of these like fat and fit, like, I don't know, ideas for working out or modifications to working out and Jessamyn Stanley was the co-creator of it.

And I was like, dang. Okay. And I think that's something that was interesting about Tumblr is that you could just repost or consume and, and you didn't have to know all the context to it, but certainly having that context helps a lot. And now it's like, you know, these are people that have been kind of, along with me on my progression, in my learning and like realizations about myself, and I didn't even realize it! 

It's really funny how much, and I don't want to say this for everybody, but like I discredit my past, but like I look back at this Tumblr, I'm like, oh, you're still the same person. And also, how cool that we've been, you know, without knowing it kind of generating—I don't want to say manifesting, I don't, I don't like that thought about manifesting—but, we created this, I don't even like vision boards, but we created this, this identity, a collage of a possibility. Maybe. I don't know, that sounds very woo woo as well, but here we are living these lives. Um, taking it from Tumblr and putting it out into the world, which is also a theme that came up in our conversation with J, so.

CP: And what you were saying earlier, Saraya, that like the kind of things we were liking and sharing, now it feels like we do that on other forms of social media. And while we follow some of the same people, we of course like, have lots of different folks we look to as well for their thoughts on fat stuff and body stuff.

Um, and you know, I think for both of us, like, our perspectives have really grown and changed since that time in our lives. But like, knowing that where we are now, like the seeds of like the radical things, pick the radical perspectives we have today were like planted through those posts on Tumblr. 

SB: It's just so telling, I know this is like, uh, a refrain that y'all have heard time and time again about like, curate where you're getting your information from. Like, if, if you don't have people around you who are ready to have these conversations, or if you're not even sure you're ready to have these conversations with yourself, like introduce it as a passive way to engage and see what sparks for you, because you know, it took a podcast for me to feel like I'm comfortable saying I'm fat, and it took a podcast for me to do the research and really get an understanding of, of why I feel passionately about the things I feel passionate about and why I deserve to be loved and cared for and represented in the world.

And, um, now I'm creating content for it, not the level of some of these other people we've mentioned, but I think what we would love to do, because we've been able to incorporate so many wonderful people into our podcasts, um, through our research, through our interviews, of course, but like, we would love to hear from you all about like, who are the folks who have either helped you spark your understanding of, of fat liberation or body positivity, and who's still somebody important to you.

CP: Yeah. We want to know. So shortly after this episode releases, we'll do a thread in our Friends and Fans Facebook group, and also probably on Instagram. And we'd love to hear from you, like, who are you looking to um, for fat liberatory content right now. Um, and we can share that out with others so they can see those suggestions.

SB: Yeah. Cause we want to learn from everybody. 

CP: And I know one person on our list is actually who we got to interview in this episode. 

SB: Absolutely.

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CP: J, thank you so much for being with us. 

J Aprileo: Thank you so much for having me. 

CP: So we're going to start out how we always do. J, what is your story as a Matter of Fat?

JA: That's such a great question. How much time do we have? (All laugh) Because I feel like there's so much there, but I would say, you know, my story as a matter of fat, um, would be that I started out kind of rocky. I mean, I have been fat my whole life, so I was a fat kid and a fat youth, fat teen, fat adult. Um, and my earliest memories are actually of, you know, everyone in my life sort of pathologizing my fatness. Um, and so from a very early age, I learned that fatness was scary and fatness was something to change and it was medical. Um, and I had, you know, a lot of like dieting, um, a lot of dieting memories and BMI talk and stuff like that from a very early age. 

Um, and it wasn't until I was in my early twenties that I really found any other narrative around fatness. Um, it, it took me sort of losing all of my connections to things that I enjoyed, like sports, I just stopped playing because I was anxious about being different and having different abilities and inabilities than everyone else.

And I sort of became less involved in school and I stopped being the center of attention. I liked being in, um, things like theater and whatnot, but I stopped participating. And when I really started like, secluding myself from the world, I actually turned to Tumblr in my early twenties, and I think that's a story for a lot of like body positive plus size activist folks of today is it really, our minds were changed because of early by body positivity on Tumblr.

CP: Yeah.

JA: That really showed me a whole new world. And it was actually Chubby Bunnies, I think that was the account. 

CP: Oh yeah.

JA: Yeah, that was just reposting, like, you know, fat women, fat people, uh, just people enjoying their bodies and feeling proud of it, and then I feel like it just snowballed from there. I really felt at home. And I just found a whole new way of living and decided like, I'm going to tackle this. I'm going to learn more about this. And I want to be part of this community. This feels like home. 

Um, and so I wouldn't say that right now, you know, my, my story matter, as a matter of fat, is anywhere near complete or healed, you know, or, um, that I've reached any sort of, you know, higher awareness than any other folks. But I would say that things are getting easier and, um, I'm healing my relationship actively with my body and with food, and I just feel so much more positive about the outlook of life as a fat person now. So I think that's something I just wanted to highlight about my story was that it started off with such, such hard, negative, um, debilitating things around fatness. And then now here I am, you know, so that's, I mean, I am excited to see where it goes from here. Cause I feel so good right now. So I can't even imagine where it's going to go. 

CP: Oh, I love that, the like we're at a good place, but like this is only getting better, kind of perspective. Oh, that's beautiful. 

JA: Thank you.

SB: Yeah., especially since you do talk a lot about this in ways that people can maybe even have those moments that you had on Tumblr, by looking at your work. So like, in the digital world, you go by @ComfyFat. So would you mind telling us more about the origins of @ComfyFat and what it means to you? 

JA: Absolutely. My favorite thing is talking about where @ComfyFat came from, because it's like, it's like tying a thread between two almost unrelated things. Um, so the way it started was on Tumblr and I was just noticing that—it was when I was first starting to understand that there were different standards for fat people to live up to, especially in just clothing and dress, um, especially for feminine folks and women. 

I realized that, wow, in order to just pass in the world as a professional person or a put together person, fat people need to be wearing makeup and, um, like a suit and tie or well-fitting clothes, because otherwise we look frumpy. Um, and I thought that's, that feels unfair. And that feels oppressive. It feels like wow, every single day I'm putting so much pressure on myself to be at such a high standard that like, thin people do not have to live up to. Like they get to wear sweats and, you know, have barbecue sauce dripping down their face and still be called, you know, sexy and beautiful.

And so I thought Comfy Fat, you know, we should be allowed to be comfortable. Um, and then I started tagging my photos as #ComfyFat and some other folks did too, and it was like a very small little circle that felt really cool and exciting. And then it sort of fizzled out for a few years. Like I stopped being as active on Tumblr and was working in social work and kind of like refocused my priorities. And then I came around to meeting Carissa and—you know, my partner Fat Girl Flow. 

Um, and I traveled for the first time as a fat person, as a super fat person, I would say. I hadn't traveled much prior, via plane because I grew up in poverty and there was no really like, you know, not really an opportunity for it. Um, but in meeting Carissa and I, I flew for the first time as a fat person, like super fat and she sort of prepared me for every single step of the way, how to make it the most comfortable experience as possible. 

And I was, I was still terrified until I did it all the way through and, just having it proceed, like being able to understand the procedures that I needed, the accessories that I might need to make it more comfortable, the things to expect when flying, how to get an additional seat. Um, which, which airlines even have that option. 

I mean, all the knowledge that she had and she just shared it with me and I thought this is a huge, huge, like market of people who don't understand that we can make flying, not just possible, but actually comfortable. Um, and that sort of opened the door to me, being really excited about sharing resources for other super fats. Um, and to show them like options and possibilities. And Carissa was like really pushing me to, to come up with like a brand. ‘Cause she was like, “You could do this”. And I was just thinking, you know, “What, what are we gonna call it?” And then I remembered Tumblr and Comfy Fat. And I was like, this is exactly what I was talking about a few years ago, how to be more comfortable in the world. Um, and that's, that's how Comfy Fat came to be. 

SB: That's perfect. You did such a good job of saying it's like pulling a thread between two disparate items, but it was pure like a, a resonance or a synchronicity of some kind too. 

JA: Yeah. Yeah, synchronicity. That's a great way to phrase it. 

CP: So we are, of course, a podcast based in the Midwest. And so we have to ask you about fat community in your part of the Midwest. What has your experience been like in Kansas? 

JA: You know, I wasn't sure what to expect when coming to Kansas, because I was coming from Massachusetts and specifically Western Massachusetts, and not, not Boston, um, in the middle of nowhere, really. And, um, I was worried, honestly to begin with, because I felt like I was leaving a place that was very queer and very left political and loud about it. And I knew that coming to the Midwest and specifically Kansas meant putting myself in a position to be more vulnerable and to have more opportunities to like, teach other folks about my identities as a non-binary person, as a happy and fat person.

And I came here and honestly, like, I am so supported by Carissa, her family, our new friends, like I have, I really feel very safe. And I also feel like at the same time, the, the plus size community feels so spread out. Like I have met incredible folks, but they are all, you know, two to four hours distance from where I'm at in Kansas.

Um, Alysse from Ready to Stare, I got to meet and I think she's incredible. Shane from, you know, Plus Size Trans Guy. He's like one of my good friends now, and I would not have been able to meet those folks without having moved here. Um, I just wish there were more opportunities, especially, you know, once the panoramas over, um, to bring us all together, you know? Cause, really that there's nothing better than the feeling of being surrounded by other plus size and fat folks who just like want to have fun, you know? 

CP: Yes. 

SB: I guess I want to go back to talking more about the content and the resources that you've been sharing out. So like we noticed—love your Twitter—there was one that you pinned that was like, “Hey, these are the areas and the pieces that I've talked about.” So we would love for you to share more about one or two of these specific topics with our audience. 

JA: Sure, absolutely. So one of the most popular posts I have is the Fat Hygiene Must-Haves posts. And the reason I created that was really because, I mean, it started with traveling and learning that there were, um, seatbelt extenders that you could take on the airplane. And then I realized, oh, there might be other assistive devices to make this thin world that didn't think of my body when it was created, uh, more accessible to me.

And I started realizing like, what are the things I struggle with that I wish I didn't have to feel like guilty about struggling with, you know, because one of the biggest, I feel like challenges, um, socially that fat people are met with is like the argument of like, ableist arguments. Like, for example, like, oh, you can't even reach your feet to put on your socks or shoes.

That's like, something that people, I feel like, have heard or are afraid of or told that's where they're headed. And I mean, first of all, people who can't reach their feet or don't have feet still deserve respect, should, should not be used as like a worst-case scenario example. And additionally, um, I found a way to put my socks on every single day with a sock-on, um, assistive device, which is like has two strings and you throw it over your foot and you pull the sock up. It's incredible. I use it every single day. And finding that, made me feel, um, like an independence. It made me feel a confidence. It made me feel like I. Like, I I'm allowed to find ways to make my life more comfortable without feeling like it's like, it doesn't count. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense?

SB: Absolutely. 

JA: And so then I, I realized like, okay, so for hygiene things like, you know, some people like to shave their legs, but can't reach all the way around. Are there razors with extended handles? Yes, there are. So it just opened this whole new world of like, wow, how many items are out there that help with reach that help with, uh, specifically, what kind of soaps can help with like particular odors or like folds in your, in your rolls and stuff.

Like, there's just so much out there that people are afraid to talk about because it's seen as, honestly seen as a disability seen as gross, and that's a problem in and of itself. Of course. Um, and I just, I wanted to put it all in one post to say, “Hey, like these are options too.” So that's where that post came from and it still gets, still does rounds every once in a while.

CP: I've seen people suggest it, like I've seen that post to be shared so many places just like throughout, over the course of the last few years, I think. I'm not quite sure when it came out, but like, it's not just like once or twice that I've seen it. Like I've seen it shared so much.

JA: That makes me so happy. And also it feels like I'm just glad that we're talking about it because it doesn't have to be shameful to not be able to reach something, you know? 

SB: Yeah. It also points to the argument that I think comes up with a lot of accessibility issues, which is like, well, no, buying this, right? Like there's not a market for this because we don't see people purchasing it. And it's like, you found that gap by saying, people don't know, there's all this taboo around asking about it. So if I put this out there, there will be people interested because people want this, you know, they wanna have access to this. So I think it's just such a, such a resource and treasure that you've put out there for people to understand that their needs can be met. 

JA: Thank you. I would also say that TUSHY is a really good example—

CP: —Oh, yes!—

JA: —Of like, you know, nobody's gonna need this, so why should we make it turns out? Oh, I don't even think TUSHY meant to find the whole fat market really. Um, and they did it and now everybody has a bidet. I mean, it’s great. 

SB: I love that article. Are there any other articles that you would want to highlight? 

JA: Yeah, I feel like my, my most vulnerable the first post that I put out that was really like a story that was kind of burning inside of me—I don't know if you know that feeling—but, um, I just wanted to get it out there. It was how fatphobia impacted my gender identity. Um, and in that I talk about how living in a world that was fatphobic had me first trying to work through feelings about my body as a fat person, and not able to even consider gender until I, um, found peace a little bit with fatphobia, with my internalized fatphobia.

It really, the world sees fat first and then gender, um, is at least how I experienced it. And I really had to, I am still working on this, pulling apart and detangling what is fatphobic and what is, um, like gender dysphoria really? That's like a huge topic that is happening, sort of in a tiptoed way. It feels like in the, um, in trans spaces. 

Because it's like, there's so much emphasis on medical transition and changing your body to, to feel like you are living your truth. And it's hard for someone in a body like mine to know if I don't like my chest, because it's so big because that feminizes me, that's how the world sees that. Or because I really don't want that there. Do I want, am I okay with my rolls, but not my hips? 

You know, it's, it's very complicated, and I think I only breached the surface with this piece, but I've had many, like, especially trans male, trans masculine folks, um, resonate with the piece and reach out to me about it because it's—it's something that is hard to talk about, I think in, um, spaces that revolve around gender, because we fought for so long to be able to justify the need for transition, for changes to our bodies. And there are more stories out there than just that narrative of like, born in the wrong body, let's change it to be to another binary. And that feels right. And I don't want to come off sounding like that's not a legitimate story, it entirely is. Um, but I also think there's so many other stories and so many ways to experience gender and so many different ways that you can get there, honestly. 

Um, it's not, I would say it, it might be—how do I say it? I think that for like a thin white able-bodied person coming to a discovery about gender, might've been just easier because of access to that story, you know? And so I didn't really, that's why I talk about what I do and my experiences, because I want that story to also be part of it. I want that story to be an option for other people, you know?

CP: J, where can folks find you and support you and engage with your work? I mean, you've given us like some quick hits of some of the pieces you've written that have, um, that have really resonated with folks, but like, there are so many more, so how can folks find it?

JA: Sure. So I've got my website www.comfyfat.com. I also can be reached on patreon.com/ComfyFat. And then on Instagram I'm @ComfyFatTravels because comfy fat was taken. All laugh.

CP: Isn’t that how it goes on Instagram? Yeah. 

SB: So I'm wondering. What is bringing you joy right now that you would want to share with us in the audience? 

JA: Sure. What's bringing me joy? Um, I would say, well, music always is I've, I made a—God, what is the playlist called—it's like Cellu-Lit playlist.

SB: That's amazing!

JA: Um, and I've shared that with my Patreon folks and that listening to that, and like dancing around in my office before work in the morning has really been setting my mood, like just right to like tackle the workday.

Um, and I'd also say Joyn. I am like really getting into Joyn. I don't know if you are familiar with them, the online platform, um, for yoga and other like exercises, they have a whole bunch of videos that are like chairs, like seated exercises, seated boxing, um, and like seated yoga. I just think it's incredible, I love that resource. And so I've started using it a little bit more lately and I find that that's really helping me feel centered and excited about movement. 

CP: Oh, that's so cool.

SB: Those are some fire tips. I love that. 

CP: Awesome. Is there anything else that you were hoping to share with us, J?

JA: I mean, I'm thankful that y'all asked me to be on the pod. I think what you're doing is great and we'll see, like, I want to listen to all of the episodes. Um, and I just really appreciate you having me here, and I would love to, I mean, show up again. 

CP: Yes! J, thanks for telling your story—

CP + SB: —as a Matter of Fat.

[THEME MUSIC FADES IN AND OUT]

SB: Ugh. Okay. I so appreciate that conversation with J. They're so easy to talk to and have a lot of thoughts after the interview. So Cat, are you cool to debrief for a moment? 

CP: Yes! I mean like it's such a great interview. Let's discuss. 

SB: Okay. I, so one, one thing that Jay shared that I think is pertinent to all the work that we do on the podcast is just, uh, I don't know. The fact that we deserve to be comfortable, like, right? Comfy Fat as the term is like, we deserve to be comfortable in the world. 

And I love this person that I shared on a story on Instagram the other day, and I'll have to find their handle. I can't remember exactly, but they were talking about how my life is ease. I default to ease when I go in the world, my life is comfort and that just really struck me. 

And that's so much of what J is doing too, is that we deserve to be comfortable. So what are ways that we can do that? Especially when we know that as fat people, there are already so many strictures and structures around us to feeling comfortable or like needing to conform to specific gender and quote-unquote professional standards, and it is unfair. So I am very into this idea of finding comfort, being comfortable in the world. Um, and yeah, I love that. 

CP: Oh yeah, me too. And I think that ties into something else that came up in this interview is like, J was talking about how they're trying to take away the stigma or shame away from things that like, you know, like everyday struggles of fat people and thus have become a resource.

And that speaks to, kind of ease too like, life doesn't need to be hard. Like if there is something that can help you do something, let's talk about it so you can know how to use this or what to find or what to look for, what to buy, to assist you with, you know, anything that you need help with. Um, and so I thought that was really, I just love that that’s the type of work they're doing. 

And like I mentioned in the conversation, I really value these pieces that J has written and, and truly do see them shared very widely. Um, and that just, it brings me so much joy ‘cause it's like, the more people who can see these resources about, um, things that are gonna make their lives better or easier in a very like, matter-of-fact, way that doesn't lean into shame or stigma is going to make us all better for it.

SB: Yeah. A hundred percent.

CP: Also I want a bidet. 

SB: Okay noted I guess. If anybody’s got a new bidet for Cat. Like throw it her way. I don't know unless that's a—

CP: —I actually was going to ask, a couple of years ago, I had thought about putting a bidet on my holiday wishlist. My dad and step mom are like, really into gifts, and I always ask for very like practical things, although, a bidet is practicality and luxury together—wow, that's a commercial—but I also several Christmases that go ask for like a different shower head, and three it's been two years and I still have not installed that thing. So I took back my request for the bidet ‘cause was like, if I haven't installed this shower head, what am I going to, I just—I'm, I'm crap for installing things in my home. So please—

SB: This is a wild aside, but like, what is it gonna take to get you to—

CP: Forgive this tangent.

SB: I’ll help you, but oh my God.

CP: So I have this like great, like a retractable shower—is that what it's called? Where you can take the shower head off?—that I got for Christmas three years ago and it's still not in my freakin’ shower, so.

SB: Alright. We're going to have to add a segment to the show of shower head watch, where we get an update.

CP:  Actually, I feel really, it feels like I—again, I'm so sorry I took us on this very intense tangent—but now saying it out loud, it like feels so foolish. I wonder if maybe this is what it will take for me to put it together. We will, yeah. 

SB: Yeah. Public shame. Love that for you. Also as I talk about like being able to be in the world without shame. 

Also, but like truly here too. It's like, why is there so much stigma around accessibility tools? Like I just, it's nonsense. And so yes, in an effort to practice what we preach, Cat, I would love to hear that you installed that.

CP: Well, we can dish about it in the next Fat Dish and I'm telling you, it probably won't be in, but if it is, we can all just offer our celebration—(Both laugh)

SB: It could be a story on Instagram. That would be pretty great. 

CP: Um, okay. We’ll see. We’ll see, but yes, a bidet. 

SB: I'm giving you a lot of work to do, but yes. Oh, my goodness. I can bring it back to, well, okay. One more thing. I want to say about like accessibility products, independence, confidence. And J had a quote that I just like, ugh, just got to me and said, or, um, the quote is: “I'm allowed to find ways to make my life feel more comfortable without feeling like it doesn't count.”

And that just, oof, that struck me as well. Um, and I guess I'm really just into this idea of, yeah, ease, comfort going through the world that way. Also the person that I was talking about before their Instagram handle is @RVXMendoza. Um, I’m a big fan of them.

CP: We'll have to tag them in our notes so we can all go follow them.

SB: Yeah. Uh, but I think another piece of this too, is just, and we talk about privilege on this podcast a fair amount, but another thing that just really landed squarely in my brain was the idea of, you know, when we travel. We've talked to many people, we've talked a lot of times about the issues of flying while fat. Um, but like J talking about how they had never been able to travel, uh, like on the plane before. And luckily they had a person who could walk them through that and help them mentally prepare.

And I just, ugh, it made me so sad to be like, this is privilege because in my mind, time is privilege. And the time that it takes for me as a fat person to plan ahead and deal with the anxiety of flying while fat as time that somebody else doesn't necessarily have to use to worry about that it can be more present, more engaged, or worrying about something else, right, that isn't just a basic thing like finding a seat, being treated, kindly dealing with all that. And I just love that what J has done is to like, keep paying that forward, um, and helping those of us who have to take this time. And like, you could easily not share that because it does take a lot of effort and energy, but that, that sharing of knowledge and sharing of practice and skills and, and ultimately community, to me. Um, that you're not alone in having these concerns or you're not alone in trying to figure this out was like pretty, pretty fantastic. Um, and also like Midwest represent! Kansas, come through! 

CP: Yes!

SB: Yeah. I just had to put that out there.

CP: Yes, Midwest! You know, it's always such a delight when we get to hear from other folks who are in the Midwest, but like aren't necessarily here in the Twin Cities. So it was really fun to hear J's take on, you know, Kansas, the fat community.

I would also mention that, um, a couple of years ago when I was on this like, summer road trip, I was able to visit J and Carissa in Kansas. It was so great. And like, I just, there's something so familiar about other, um, like, you know, traveling within the Midwest or being in the Midwest. It's like, I like going other places, but, um, visiting other like cities and spaces in the Midwest just feels so I dunno, so comfortable. I just feel so at home. Is that something you've experienced at all? 

SB: Yes and no. So for some reason, like road signs are like meaningful to me, like when it marks a city or an upcoming exit or something like that. Yeah. So when they are similar to Minnesota’s like, I am comfortable. And I think that is in a fair amount of Midwestern states that they're somewhat similar. 

Um, but I don't, yeah, I, there is something comfortable and also uncomfortable for me. And I think that comes down to like, rural areas too, and not feeling very comfortable going through rural areas of the Midwest. Even though I have family who, like farm, and are in those areas and have always felt comfortable with them in their communities. But, um, there is this like kindred spirit with other fat folks across the Midwest though. And I, and I remember when we were talking with Siomai Moore about just how cool it is, but like the fat community also feeling very spread out. And that's what J alluded to as well.

And just how that, that is indicative of the Midwest to me, just sprawling, right? Like sprawling plains and like being kind of, kind of pulled apart, which is why I think I'm so lucky to be based in the Twin Cities with such a vibrant fat community. But, yeah. 

CP: Yeah, we really do. It is a real gift here to have such a good, like happenin’ fat community. And I mean, that can, could stand to be better and bigger and more interconnected, but like compared to other places, um, just feels a little bit different, which is, which is just such a gift, you know?

Something else about, um, our conversation with J that I wanted to highlight: they said, um, I think this came up when they were talking about their story, as a Matter of Fat, and like kind of when it got to like, well, “Here I am now.”, they said something to the effect of, “You know, things are good now, but I can't even imagine where they're all going to go.”

And I love this perspective; this like radical focus on like the positive or like, you know, being able to look forward to the future with hope and excitement. Like that just feels so, oh, I just, I love that perspective, and like, could stand to embody that a little bit more. Um, so I just wanted to call, call attention to, to that kind of fire quote that they share.

SB: Yeah, I mean, when we talk about like a positive re-imagining of the future and also like what we alluded to earlier in the episode of looking back at Tumblr and be like, “Oh, these are some really cool ideas that I'm just starting to germinate.” And here we are. So of course, of course things are going to get bigger and better and more complex, I think?

That's where I'm at. And Jay started talking about this topic too, which is really interesting about, you know, gender and fatness and how the world sees fat first and then gender, and really trying to parse out like my own feelings of my body, is that because of like, gender representation? Or is that because of, um, anti-fat bias or internalized fat attitudes and dang, like, that's hard! That's really, really hard and an interesting conversation and an important conversation.

Um, so I'm really glad that they brought that up into light of something that they're working through. And so to think about the future, it’ll be very cool to see where they're at with that personally, and like where the larger conversation around that is in the future too. 

CP: Yeah. 

SB: Also like, shout out to the Cellu-lit playlist? (Laughs) That really, really got me. 

CP: Oh my God, amazing. Go join J's Patreon so you can have access to the Cellu-lit playlist, because that is incredible. 

SB: And I mean, I know we've been asking our guests what brings them joy, but like, I don't think I realized how cool it's been to hear, uh, what that looks like. Just from dancing and there's like, everybody's had different things that they've shared, but I love that we're able to get a peek into what brings people joy, because as much as we talk about the complexities or challenges, you know, living with ease, living with comfort, living with joy is just something that I want for everybody that we engage with.

CP: Yeah. I agree. And I guess spoiler alert for other, you know, the, to y'all audience, for upcoming interviews, but yeah, that type of question is something that we've been able to, I think, ask most or maybe all of our guests this season. And it's just always such a true pleasure to hear what's bringing them joy. And with that, something else that always brings us a little joy, uh, getting into the—

CP + SB: —Dirt and Discourse!

[THEME MUSIC FADES IN AND OUT]

CP: It's time for the Dirt and Discourse. This is where we dive into the excitement and discomfort around relevant pop and cultural happenings. 

SB: And, oh my goodness. Okay. That is the tag for Dirt and Discourse. You've heard it time and time again. Or, for the first time, if this is the first time you're listening. 

In any case, this one is messy! And like, a lot of our Dirt and Discourses are messy, but as we've been talking about people we've looked up to or followed, um, as part of, kind of our experience in, in understanding ourself in the world and other fat, not celebrities, but like icons I would say, um. We wanted to talk about how, how challenging it is when there is so little representation, or we were really excited about someone who is, you know, showing up as fat in the larger public eye, um, how, how much pressure they have to meet like high standards that we have for them and how disappointing it can be when they, when they do things that are antithetical to what we value or what we're excited about. And like, is it fair to have pressure on people just because they have, um, a certain body size? Is it fair to have these expectations for people who are fallible and, and yet we still do. And so that's kind of the tenor of the conversation we're having in the Dirt and Discourse today. And that was kind of a messy intro, but that's where we're at folks. 

CP: That's what it is! Fellow fat folks that we look up to who have disappointed us and how we feel about it. And to put it simply, and also all of the things that Saraya said at the top, like, you know, is it even fair for us to feel disappointment? Is, are we expecting too much or too little from people? What does this all mean? I think we really got to thinking as we were, you know, looking at these accounts that we followed 10 years ago and thinking like, you know, from then till now, who have we looked up to that we've maybe changed our opinion about a little bit or people who have, you know, disappointed us, but we still will stan them forever. Um, and kind of everything in between. 

SB: So true. So like, representation is important and I cling to it and also like how much am I willing to let people, like certain people slide on things and like, how much am I ready to cancel people? Like people in my, in my fat rep stable. Right. Like, and maybe we should give some, some examples, like—

CP: —Examples?—

SB: —So I have one. It's not controversial, but I, ‘cause we love Lizzo. We do. Oh, we love Lizzo.

CP: Always. 

SB: And yet there was this little time in her career where she was really just like popping off nationally. But like right before that, and all of a sudden she was selling these weird mood stickers, um, where you could buy these stickers and you put on and she's like, oh, your mood changes. I'm like, what is this? 

CP: Like, like a mood ring?

SB: No, they’re stickers that change, like apparently have some kind of, um, vitamin or—

CP: —Oh, make your mood different!

SB: Yeah. So you would stick it onto your skin and it would help you sleep or it’d help you feel calm and things like that. And I'm like, what is it? What is going on ma'am or like, you know, occasionally she'll do like juice cleanses. And there was this one, like video that came out in the last few months where she was talking about this juice cleanse and she was plugging a product. And I was like, where is this coming from? Like, this is so bizarre to me. And also like, yeah, like, of course she's trying to make money. She's like living in the public eye and like, I'm not gonna fault her for making that money. I don't know. 

So like, I'll probably let a lot of stuff slide for her because she does a lot right in my opinion. But, yeah, it's a little like, why, why do I let so much of that slide? I don't know, but that's my example. Who comes to mind for you as we have this conversation? 

CP: Oh my gosh, so many people and Lizzo's on my list too. Like I just will always and forever love Lizzo so much, and also just like, am not cool with some of the decisions she makes. That's fine. Like she's not making decisions, you know, like I, what, what do I matter? Um, one of my favorite arch-nemesis-s—is that a word?

SB: I don’t think—nemeses.

CP: Nemeses?

SB: Nemeses. Do they know?

CP: No, but we've discussed this. Someone can not be my arch nemesis if they don't know that I don't like them. And we've discussed all the people who are not listening to this podcast, you know, who else isn't listening? Ashley Graham. So I don't think we can count it as a nemesis situation, but, um, she's someone who has just like constantly messed up and, uh, uh, who I just used to think so highly of and have like so much excitement around. Um, and now just do not.

And I really could do a TedTalk about this, but, um, I'll give you the quick hits. She was on Khloe Kardashians’ Revenge Body show. Um, so thus like endorsing it when there was a plus sized person on there. She made all of her money model—no, that's not the right way to say it. She rose to a claim modeling for every plus-size—

SB: For Sports Illustrated, right?

CP: Well, that was when she really hit it. But before that, she modeled for every plus-size brand out there. Um, and I remember her, especially with, um, Lane Bryant and the like the, I Am No Angel campaign from when we were, I don't know, that must have been like 2015 or, no, 2013? Anyway, after she rose to a claim and like was on Sports Illustrated, she decided that she didn't want to be called “plus-size” anymore, which like, is a whole conversation within, like the modeling community, but also like, Ashley like, show some respect, like you have made—plus-size people have consumed your image through these stores throughout all of this, like, find a better way or a different way to like, to, to resist that. Like you're just shitting on all these fat people. And then also she wrote a book and she's racist and she doesn't, she's like essentially like the quintessential white feminist.

Um, I actually think that we—I detailed some of these sites in one of our older, older episodes. 

SB: Yeah. 

CP: Yeah. So anyway, she's on my list. Um, other people—

SB: Can I also say, like you say, the only way that I know Ashley Graham is because I watched— 

CP: —Through my complaining?

SB: Predominantly, yes. Um, no, I watched an episode of John Quiñones, John Quiñones’ What Would You Do? And the whole premise was this, this, this man was introducing his girlfriend to his parents in a public space. And like, all these folks were white and, um, he was thin, the parents were thin and like, Ashley was brought in as the fat girlfriend. 

I just, I cannot, because like true, even if you're this, uh, gorgeous or like, acclaimed model that people are gonna still say awful things about you cause yeah, accurate, but how wild that these producers and knew that we can't actually talk about someone who's fat unless—and like gain appropriate concern for them, unless they're a model who has been featured on Sports Illustrated. Like why don’t we just have a fat actor come in and play this note. We can't, that, people wouldn't understand. Yeah. People wouldn't understand why that's bad. Um, so that's my, my main point of reference for Ashley Graham.

CP: Which is also a big cringe. Um, also like maybe this is, I don't, I just added this to the notes so I hope this is appropriate to share Saraya, but like, even folks like that we've interviewed here. Like we had the pleasure of interviewing Virgie Tovar on the podcast. She's not local to the Midwest or the Twin Cities, but came through on a book tour, and it was so amazing to talk with her and so amazing to meet her. And I, I do, and probably always will think so highly of her. 

And also like a year ago, maybe a little more, she like, um, had some articles that I imagined she was paid—I hope—she was paid handsomely to create, um, talking up certain, um, certain brands that were just like, you know, not inclusive and saying, you know, lauding these, “Wow,  what an amazing thing for this, you know, business leader in this brand to have all these sizes.” They go up to size 22, like who are you talking to? Where did this come from? So, you know, even people who, um, I respect really highly, um, for their work in the fat community and really value a lot as people like they disappoint too.

SB: Yeah. I think it’s just—

CP: —That's like what happens, right? I've, I've been lucky to, um, be able to change my perspective over the last two years. I think a while ago I would get really like personally offended when people did things like that. When Lizzo shared something about her song being used in a Weight Watchers commercial or when this article with Virgie came out, I would be like, personally hurt. And I've really learned to distance myself from that. Like, it's not about me. It's not personal. Um, I think like—

SB: —But it’s so, like what is this culture of expecting, like celebrities or others to be better than they are? Or like, to not be human? And right, I don't know. It's like, it's a double-edged sword because people have to play a game to get to this level of—not notoriety, that sounds pretty negative, but like celebrity or just being known. And so like, why do we fault them or like them less for exhibiting these behaviors that they've learned on their way to achieve this status like, yeah. 

It's like what you're discussing too is like an interesting parasocial relationship. Like, I feel like I have a relationship with this person because they represent me in some way, but like, they don't know who we are. They're not even when we were being their nemeses, but like, they don't even know we exist.

CP: They don’t even know who we are! Ashley Graham certainly does not listen to the podcast. Um, yeah. And it's, but you know, so part of it is like, um, it's not personal and that I've learned, but I also think it's like, appropriate to be, um, just to not respect some of the decisions that people make. And like, I think that's okay too. And like, to live in this weird space of, you know, still appreciating folks while also acknowledging that like, some of the things that they've done, don't align with our values and like, we can still like people and also still not endorse everything they do. Like, I think that there's room for that.

I also think there's room for, I wouldn't say canceling people, but I think there's room for saying, “Oh, you've done so many things that I don't agree with that like, I'm not gonna look to you um, as a thought leader or as a celebrity that I, you know, hold in high esteem,” and like that's alright too. And they're doing just fine regardless of how I feel. 

SB: I just, it, it comes out sound to what we say time and time again. It's just like, we need more. We need more representation, more people with different opinions, different backgrounds, so that we just don't have to hang our hopes on one person or a few people. Um, so, yeah. Just, I think in like season one and two, we talked to like, Netflix do better, but like just generally like, systems do better! Like we want more wonderful fat people to come forward so we can see just how messy we are and like, not have to feel this dichotomy of either loving or being disappointed by someone at any given time.

[THEME MUSIC FADES IN AND OUT] 

SB: Hopefully we're not disappointing you too much as we come to the end of this episode.

CP: Oh my gosh, Saraya (Both CP + SB laugh) Thanks so much for spending time with us, y'all as always remember, you can visit our website for full show notes on info that we share in this episode. Plus we have transcripts, info about Matter of Fat, links to all of our socials, access to older episodes and information about our next Podluck, which is July 1st. On July 1st in our public, we're discussing an episode from She's All Fat about reproductive justice and fat liberation. It was recommended by Kristin, one of our Podluck regulars. 

SB: Oh yes. We love that suggestion. And we love Kristin and all of our Podluck regulars and newcomers too, um, and to have our matter of fact assistants, Erin and Sophie, are actually hosting the upcoming potlucks, so we hope to see you join us. 

CP: As always, a reminder that if you love our podcast and want to help out with expenses that we've personally shouldered for much of the last four years, you can send us some Fat Cash, on Venmo @MatterOfFatPod. And you can also find more information about Fat Cash, like what we use it for, on our website. 

SB: If you are so kind as to share some Fat Cash with us, we love to shout you out in an upcoming episode. Uh, we also give shout outs for reviews on Apple podcasts. And on this episode, we're excited to shout out Anne! Oh my gosh, thank you for the review, Anne, we appreciate you.

CP: Fat Cash, reviews, shout outs. They are never expected, but always so, so appreciated. 

SB: Always appreciated. Always, always, always. 

CP: Well, that's all for this episode, folks!

SB: That feels like very cartoony to me. That's all, folks! 

CP: I guess it looked like that, but yes, it does read like that.

SB: Until next time when we're back with another episode of—

CP + SB: —Matter of Fat!