S4E8 - Emilie Robinson, Tattoo Tales, + Size Scams - Transcript

Season 4, Episode 8:

Emilie Robinson, Tattoo Tales, + Size Scams

Released on July 21st, 2021. For complete episode info, visit this page!

[THEME MUSIC FADES IN AND OUT]

Cat Polivoda: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body-positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities. Hi, I'm Cat Polivoda, a local fat feminist, shop owner, and I'm constantly reminded of my love for Target stores. Made in Minnesota, baby! I'm joined by my co-host and producer, Saraya Boghani. 

Saraya Boghani: Hi, I'm Saraya. I'm a fat multiracial Minneapolitan millennial who has been basking in the rainbow pride light streaming across the Minneapolis skyline from the Target headquarters in downtown Minneapolis. Hashtag not sponsored, hashtag not an ad partner, although it sure sounds like it! It sure sounds like it.

CP: Absolutely not (laughs). On Matter of Fat, we talk about the cultural politics of fat liberation with a Midwest perspective.

SB: So on this episode, we're chatting about tattoos, sharing our fantastic interview with Emilie Robinson of Merci Tattoo and talking about lies and plus-size charts in the Dirt and Discourse.
CP: Yep, all that and more as--

CP + SB: —A matter of fat.

[THEME MUSIC FADES IN AND OUT]

SB: Okay. So tattoos! Tattoos. Uh, between the two of us Cat, you have the most. And also the only tattoos, so I would like, so give you some space to talk about your tattoos. Give us a picture, tell us your earliest, tell us your most vivacious, most audacious story related to tattoos. Anything you want to tell the people, please do so.

CP: Wow, this is a lot about, okay. I um, I will share, um, and this comes up a little bit in our interview, too, because as we alluded to, um, my most recent tattoo is from Emilie Robinson, who we get to talk to in this episode. And that is probably my biggest, boldest, best tattoo, and the one that I am most excited about right now, ‘cause I got like a big tattoo on my arm that I wanted for so many years.

So that's fun. Um, but yes, in all, I like to say I have four and a half tattoos because one of them is like, a coverup of an old tattoo. So that's where the half comes in, right? Um, My very first tattoo was, um, a cross on my foot when I was 18. Ya girl used to be pretty religious. 

SB: Um, but I like how much of a bad girl you were cause as soon as you were able to do that, you went out and did it right away.

CP: Yeah. I wanted it before I was 18, but my mom said, no. My mom is not a fan of tattoos and she's like, really good at letting me do what I want. Like, especially after I turned 18, you know, it's like my choice and all these things, but she's never been a fan. Um, so maybe the weirdest story related to tattoos was that first one: me and my, one of my high school besties, Chrissy like, plan to get this tattoo. And we went to go, we went to her uncle's to do it. I was kind of misinformed about the level of professionalism, uh, from this tattooing uncle, I thought he—

SB: Wait, did he have a shop, when you went to her uncles? Oh no.

CP: Well, my own understanding—and I don't think that like, she misled me. I just thought that I was like, excited to believe what I wanted to believe—but in my head, he's this like, great tattoo artist. And you were just going to like, you know, go to his house, and he was going to just like, you know, work on us in his home studio or whatever. Okay. Fast forward to me, on this man's couch, my foot in his lap while he tattoos this very haphazard cross my foot. Yeah, it was, it was, it was really bad.

And then, that was right before I was an exchange student. So for a whole year, I be-bopped around Germany with this just like sad, like, “Is that a cross on your foot?” kind of tattoo. It was bad, really, really bad. And then when I, uh, I came home, I got it like, fixed. And then when I was in college, actually, um, I got it covered up and, um, one of my besties came with me for that as well, and, um, gifted me part of that as like a graduation gift, which was so sweet.

Um, so yeah, I had the first tattoo was from this, you know, uncle in, in his place, uh, not a shop. And then when I got it covered up, it was from this like, kind of bad-ass gal whose name I don't remember from a tattoo shop near Hamline? Not Fluid Ink. It was the one by the, by the place with the good BLTs, across from Nelson's Deli. Yes. Yeah. Meats or Nelson’s Meats or whatever that place is called. God, they have a great deli. 

SB: Nelson’s Cheese and Deli. 

CP: Cheese and Deli. They have a great BLT. 

SB: Um, is it beloved? No.

CP: Maybe! Yeah!

SB: It doesn't matter. That tattoo studio, over in the Como area.

CP: I think that's what it is called actually. And then, what else? Oh, I have out also with the same friend, Susun, who is a friend of the pod who we’ve mentioned her here before, I got a “Nevertheless she persisted” tattoo on my arm and I really love that. And actually ,that was part of what influenced me to get my, the big one on top of my arm one, then I've been wanting that for forever. But when I tell you, after I got this little tattoo on my forearm, the like, poses I would do to make sure it would like be visible in selfies. I just like, felt so bad-ass. I was like, “Look at this cool tattoo on my forearm.” Um, oh, and then actually—so I'm going on and on, and I did not go in chronological order—also, the year was 200—

SB: That’s okay. Not the year was!

CP: The year was 2007. I was in Argentina with another friend, Ariana—I don't think she listens to the pod, maybe she does—um, and I got this really big, cool tattoo on my back, or I guess it felt big at the time. It's not as big as the one on my arm, but, um, it was an interesting experience because I don't speak Spanish really, um, and the tattoo artist did not speak English really. And so bless her heart. Ariana was like the translator and it, it was a good, bad experience. Um, like I, this, the tattoo artist was, was, um, just like a real interesting guy. I didn't eat breakfast and almost passed out. They had to lay me down on the floor, elevate my feet and feed me Fanta.

SB: Oh no! Feed you Fanta, I don't think that any doctor would be like, “Yeah, that’s going to help the situation, drink some sugar water.”

CP: (Laughs) But I was lightheaded, right, ‘cause I just like—I, and I'm someone who, um, is a little bit fussy with needles actually. But tattoos is like, a little different to me than like getting a shot—

SB: You also love acupuncture.

CP: But that is so different, acupuncture doesn't hurt me, like hardly at all. And tattooing does hurt quite a bit in my opinion, but I like, I think the end result is worth it. Um, also I wish I remembered this guy's name from the tattoo shop in Argentina, like Billy maybe or something just like you wouldn't expect? 

SB: Shout out to Billy.

CP: Um, no, maybe it was like Robbie? I actually, I should go back through my journal from that year. I bet it's written in there anyway. Um, in addition to like the pass-out scare with the, with the Fanta, um, well, he was really convinced I had scoliosis, like something was wrong with my back, ‘cause the tattoo was on my back. And like several times he turned to Ariana was like, “I really think you got to tell her, like she really should get her back checked”. I was like, you are so concerned!

SB: Robbie was also going to med school. Did you ever get it checked out?

CP: No, but I don’t, I think it’s fine.

SB: I feel like next time you get a checkup, you might as well do a check. 

CP: Like, “Hey Katherine, I just like, is, is this a scoliosis back? Or am I okay?

SB: “I had a scoliosis scare back in the early aughts. Would you mind just checking in?” Interesting. Okay. we didn't really talk to Emilie about this, but like you do just get to know the human body in such a different way than, you know, civilians. I don't know how you term.

CP: Like you or I? Who don’t do bodywork?

SB: Yes, the laypeople Yeah, yeah. But like you probably just see so much and then start to get attuned to it. And so I wonder why he was so focused on scoliosis though. Interesting

CP: It's also possible that, like, that was one of the main three things that I remembered from this like very weird, wonderful day. 

SB: What was the tattoo?

CP: Oh, it's like, it's like this design on my back. It sort of looks a little butterfly-y. It's honestly like, now, 12 years later, it's like, pretty busted. Um, it's not looking, it's not looking great. Um, but you know, what was fun was that my friend, she also got us heads to different tattoo, different location, but, um, they're both in places like where we couldn't reach them very well. So we like right after we got our tattoos, we went to the, the like, um, what is it called in Argentina? Apotheke is what we'd call it in Germany. Like the drugstore, but like not a CVS, you know, like where you go to the counter and—I don't know how to describe it. I think they're pretty common in other countries. Not here. Anyway, we went there, got this like special lotion called Dermaglós, and then twice a day we would like, wash, or, I don't know if, but, and like moisturize each other's tattoos to like, help with the healing process. And it was just like a really sweet, a really sweet thing, yeah. And a really fun highlight of that trip that I took to go visit her. She is not, um, Argentinian. She was living there for a year—well, she lived there for, um, six months and then in Mexico for six months on an exchange program. So I went to go visit for several weeks and got a tattoo while we were there!

SB: Did you get matching tattoos? 

CP: No, they did not match. 

SB: Okay, okay.

CP: Not opposed to matching tattoos, wink wink.!

SB: Don’t— (Cat laughs)

CP: But before we get into that, let's talk about you Saraya. You are tattoo-free, except for like, some little fun experiments here and there with those cool things that advertise to us on Instagram. Right?

SB: I was gonna say, Instagram knows. Instagram knows that I like, flirt with the idea of a tattoo, but I'm like also not committed to anything. My fear of commitment, um, also extends to body art, apparently. Yeah. I mean, I'm not opposed to tattoos actually. I, I think they look great on people for the most part, depending on what they are. Um, but I just don't know what I would want or like placement, I think is the hardest part for me, because even if I were to commit to something, just like, where would you put it? Where, where would you want it? And so I'm always impressed by people who have committed to having that on their body for like—

CP: —Forever?—

SB: Basically eternity, yeah. Yeah. Um, and also I’ve just changed. I've changed my, what—I feel like I'm a pretty consistent person in the long run, but also like what I think is really, really amazing now, um, you know, I'll probably look back lke “Oh, how quaint”, so many years later.

CP: Yeah, that's true. 

SB: I think I don't want that to extend to a large piece of artwork that I'm invested in on my body, but I have been, yeah. The Instagram algorithm, um, showed me this company called Inkbox, which is basically like semi-permanent tattoos—not even semi-permanent they last for about a month. And so I've been playing around with those, just because why not? It’s fun. And I have a couple finger tattoos right now. 

CP: Did you put them on?

SB: Yeah.

CP: In preparation for our tattoo episode! Yes!

SB: Sure (laughs) you could say that. 

CP: I love it! Put a picture on our Insta and let people know like tattoo content coming up!

SB: Well I did it for Pride. But I also knew we would be recording too.

CP: Well I will not let Matter of Fat take all the credit.

SB: No, no, we can. We can. You heard it here, folks. It's it's for this. Um, and they're just like, really dainty and sweet. And when we were talking, when you talked about your like forearm tattoo, you're like, “It gets thicker over time.” Like it'll start out very thin and then does it just like, bleed or what happens that the lines thicker?

CP: I don’t know the technical term, It just, it gets thicker and like comes together like, yeah, like--

SB: Like all of us. Like many of us.

CP: Like many things over time just gets a little thicker. 

SB: I do have one other tattoo right now, fake tattoo on,—

CP: —Where?—

SB: —Um, it's on my arm, my upper arm on the inside. And it's like, very millennial-cliche moment, but I got it for two other friends. So Inkbox does, um, they do collabs with different artists. So they did, they did one with Rupi Kaur and—of course they did, right? And so I just got this very tiny one that says “To be soft is to be powerful.” And I gave it to two other friends and I don't think they've used it, but then I was like, “Where should I put this?” I'm like, “Oh, I want to put this on the softest, one of the softest parts of my body.” And so it's on my inner arm, inner upper arm. 

CP: Oh, I love the look of that. Yes. Okay. Well, I am so impressed. I didn't realize you'd have tattoos on your body for the recording of our tattoo episode—or, the episode we decided to discuss tattoos, rather. Oh, how fun. Okay. 

SB: It's just fun. Fun to play around. But I would, I would concede to maybe at the close of our Matter of Fat project, whenever that is, getting a matching tattoo with you. 

CP: Okay. I think that would like, nothing would make me happier. I just, uh, and I would like, oh, I don't have, I mean—I just—I can't think of, I can't think of like another beautiful, I mean, of course there are other ways to like commemorate such a thing, but--

SB: It will be a neck tattoo. You know that, right? 

CP: Oh, no, I don't want that. I mean, never say never, but like, I don’t think my neck. Becky Pearbeck would not have that. She's mad enough I got all these other tattoos in places. Her thing was always like, “You don't want to have a tattoo where you can see it in a business suit or a wedding dress”, which that philosophy I do think was very like, applicable when she was growing up. But I don't think it's as applicable now.

SB: Well here's the thing.

CP: Yes. Yes. 

SB: So I was hanging out with some friends last night and one of my friends, Martha. 

CP: Martha!

SB: She has lots of really cool different tattoos all over her body. Um, and we were just talking about how it's surprising. ‘Cause she, we were talking about my fake tattoos. I feel like such a small child--I have temporary sparkly tattoos on! Well, they’re not sparkly. Um, our friend Mykall, also another friend of the pod who said he listens. And I was like, “Is it cause you want to hear your name?” And he's like, “Well—” 

CP: It does come up time and time again.

SB: Yes, it comes up fairly often. Yes. So in any case, Michael, Martha and I were chatting and we were talking like, “Martha, how come you don't have any finger tattoos?” Like that would be very much a thing she would do. She was like, “Well, I'm in law school and a judge would not see kindly to that.” All of her other tattoos can be covered up. And I was like, yep. So I think it is still, you know, fairly applicable depending on where you're trying to be and what you're trying to do, but I don't know. My mom certainly doesn't like tattoos though. She's, she and Becky are on the same page.

CP: That does not surprise me. I feel like they're on the same page with a lot of stuff. 

SB: So many things, yes. For good, yeah.

CP: Well, I, for, for, that's not something we need to decide now, Saraya, but as you know, this, we continue with this project and eventually when it comes to a close, yeah. I think we gotta document it with some tattoos. It would just be so fun. And so, so like, nice to have that little reminder for forever. Maybe it could have like, sort of like a, it could be a little Venus, honestly. 

SB: For sure. And also we haven't talked to Emilie about this, but having Emilie do it would be amazing.

CP: Oh yeah, that would be incredible. Incredible. Well, we love the thought of this, we love Emilie, and I think that everyone else is going to love Emilie too, after they hear this interview!

[THEME MUSIC FADES IN AND OUT]

CP: Emilie, we're so happy you're with us. 

Emilie Robinson: Thank you so much for having me!

CP: So we're going to start out how we always do. Um, Emilie, what is your story as a matter of fat?

ER: Yeah, thank you so much again for inviting me. Um, this question was an interesting one and I definitely had to think about it for awhile. Um, and I guess I wanted to start my story as a matter of fat, um, where I grew up. So I was born in France and grew up primarily in Ireland and Germany and France, um, moving a lot. And I sort of grew up around a lot of ideas of what bodies should look like. Obviously, same as people in the U.S. but I think, um, there's definitely a lot of like fatphobia and, and xenophobia that was sort of on display pretty early on.

Um, I felt that a little bit from being different or being, you know, an American in Europe or having my little glasses, or whatever the thing was that made me different, but I would really see it in, in bullying and a lot of things, just that kids will get up to. But I feel like from early on, I realized like, “Okay, if you're different, that's bad. If you're the same, that's good.” And, um, that kind of stuck with me through my young age, um, growing up. And then, growing up, I also had a lot of people in my life and my family that, um, did a lot of sort of disordered eating and not necessarily something that was talked about, but it became pretty clear to me that people in my life were using food as a way to kind of control how they felt like they fit into the world.

Um, so all those things were kind of floating around. Um, and I think that I was sort of unaware of, of, like how those little things were taking root in me, um, until my mid-twenties, when I started to deal with, uh, really severe food allergies. I'm still dealing with it now, but I started to deal with a lot of like chronic pain and, um, a lot of different foods upset my stomach and I was in and out of the doctor. And um, part of finding what would sort of healing for me or good for my body also meant that my body type changed quite significantly. And I don't think I realized how much I had internalized that feeling of having to be an ideal body until it was sort of no longer maybe—you know, I could, I could see my friends who were gorgeous and curvy and, you know, it was no big deal until suddenly I was looking at myself and saying, “Emilie, you're not the ideal that you see everyone else telling you to be.”

And I know it's kind of like, a late stage to realize that, but it was really, um, kind of a slow burn. And, um, I remember the, probably the most like specific moment where it hit me was when I went shopping at the mall in my late twenties and suddenly found that nobody carried my size, like, you know, six shops in a row, and I know this is a really familiar story for a lot of people, but just that feeling that there wasn't even like a place for me or that people didn't even consider me worthy of, you know, having clothes for, you know, like my money wasn't any good, ‘cause I wasn't seen as, um, worthy almost or visible.

And that, that feeling itself, uh, was a newer one for me. And was just that feeling of like, I, you know, this, obviously it felt terrible. But also feeling like that actually ended up really instructing how I have ended up, um, setting up my own tattoo shop and also how I, as a business owner have thought about people in, in my life who are coming to me. It's like, how can I create a space? How can I, um, see people and, and build something that not only fits them, but as welcoming to them, takes that extra step of, um, including and valuing, um, their life and their body as, as it is. And, um, you know, obviously it's a very ongoing sort of thing that I'm working on, and I know I told both of you that I was a little nervous to talk about it because I think it's just not settled, you know? it's something that we always keep working on, but learning how to value myself and really celebrate myself, um, has been something that's, that was easier to do for other people, and then I feel like now I'm really working on doing that for myself. Yeah. So that's my that's my little answer. (laughs)

SB: It was a great answer. You're right. Like that story reverberates, across our audience members for us personally, too. And it's just so interesting how you talked about these external people, factors kind of informed what you thought was your worthiness, right? Like whether it be the kids growing up, whether it be the stores not having your size of clothing. And I think it's so interesting that you said like, “Oh, this really truly instructed and informed how I wanted to go about being in the world” and comporting yourself and even your, your business. And, you’re a tattoo artist! I mean, was it a really direct, like one-to-one connection, like, “Oh, I'm feeling this type of way. I need to do something about it.” Or like, how did you end up becoming a tattoo artist? I would be thrilled to hear more about that.

ER: For sure! I think, I think that it was a little bit of a, like a little bit of a lightbulb moment. I think when I was able to connect my own experience with, um, how I wanted to address and, and welcome my clients, I think that one was in, um, it took me a minute to kind of like catch on, you know. I think, um, how I wanted to become a tattoo artist was along along the story of, of being interested in art, and, um, for a long time I was working in nonprofit because I wanted to connect with people, but that, that art thing kept coming up. And, um, what I was seeing when I would go and get tattooed, because I was getting tattooed at the time, I wouldn't really see people like me or, um, places that felt super comfortable, and so initially I didn't even think about being a tattoo artist. ‘Cause I thought I don't really have, there's no place for me here. There's no place in the industry.

Um, But thankfully I ended up ignoring that and pushing through anyway. Um, I definitely had to get through a lot of shops that felt really sort of hostile to difference and hostile to, you know, women, definitely hostile to people of color, hostile to fat people, hostile, you know. There's just, um, unfortunately tattooing, like a lot of industries has a long way to go.

Um, but the, the, the part for me, to answer your question about like, how does the feeling of my, and the experience in my own body, how does that connect with my business? Um, the real light bulb moment for me was as I started tattooing people, you, and often people are like undressing to some degree around you, um, mostly women, uh, where my clientele. Almost inevitably, you would hear a little statement come out of somebody who is, you know, maybe taking their pants off for a leg tattoo or something, and they would almost always make some little sort of little barb about themselves. Like, you know, apologize for something about their body, or kind of like just an offhand comment. And it really bothered me because, you know, it's like, I definitely don't see that in the person, but also I could definitely hear my own voice saying that to myself. And what I used to say was, I’d say, “Oh, this is a hate free zone. And, and that includes like against yourself,” you know? And I would say that all the time, that was kind of my way of like diffusing that kind of moment. Um, but then I realized that I was saying those same things to myself in the mirror, like every day, like in the same, you know, in the same breath. So that's kinda where that lightbulb for me came. I was like, “Okay. So if I'm telling you and people, this is a hate free zone because I'm accepting them and wanting them to feel comfortable, shouldn't I also be building that for myself, you know? And what does that look like?” And, you know, that's a whole story about how I've begun to kind of build a business that, um, you know, we're striving to make inclusive, but yeah, it's definitely, it was definitely a little slow moment for me going, oh, wait a minute. Like “If I'm saying this, so someone else, um, I should also treat myself, like I would, you know, uh, uh, a beloved customer or a good friend as well,” you know?

CP: Oh, that's so cool to hear. And I like, so you tattooed me, Emilie. 

ER: Yes!

CP: I have just this amazing tattoo on my arm that I just am more and more in love with every day.

ER: I’m so glad.

CP: Um, I love it so much. And when I was, when you were tattooing me, I'm not one to make self-deprecating comments about my body size, but I did talk about my skin. I was like, “My skin's kind of bumpy. I hope that's okay.” And you were like, “Your skin is perfect for tattooing.” I was just like, the way to responded to me, I was like, this makes me feel so good. And it's just like, so clear that that is a value of yours, like to affirm in their bodies. And, you know, we know that you've been really thoughtful it with being inclusive in your practices for your business, but could you talk about like, what that looks like specifically for tattooing fat people? 

ER: One thing that I realized early on at the shop that I had been working at, um, when I had started to kind of, like I said, have that lightbulb moment of “Wait a minute, I could make this space more welcoming.” One thing I noticed early on is that the waiting room chairs and it seems small, but the waiting room chairs are very low. And I would realize early on that if I had clients come in, it would be, it wasn't accessible to everyone. There are a lot of clients that would find it difficult to, to sit down and get up from this lower seat. And so I would start to have people come and wait up next to my station. And it was just that small change, but for me, it was that moment of, okay, I see an issue here. Let me kind of alter it a little bit.

Um, and then it, you know, became something where, you know, I'd have a client who really graciously let me in on, on their own knowledge of themselves and, and said, “Hey, I feel kind of uncomfortable on this massage table you have here. It doesn't feel very supportive to me.” Um, You know, that would be another really kind of specific moment of thinking, okay. like, the furniture here is not working for everyone. What does that mean? Um, what does that look like?

Um, at that shop, I didn't have a lot of leeway to make changes, but really directly that informed, um, the new space that I ended up being able to find. Um, and it's ongoing. I think a lot of it's about, um, continuing education, whether that's just like researching, um, but also asking people for feedback, but some of the things we've done at our shop has been, um, you know, we're an accessible, wheelchair-accessible, um, space with an elevator and, um, wider doors, which is really helpful if people are in chairs.

Um, you know, having all of our seating, being really comfortable and accessible, um, not having seating with armrests. Um, you know, being able to have chairs that are really supportive to people. But, but beyond that too, we've also, um, started including a lot of like cushions, we have bought these really nice vinyl bolsters, and that's something that I see myself and everyone at the shop do a lot, which is that we use the bolsters as a way to support people's bodies as they're sitting for long periods of time, just knowing that no matter what your body type is and whether it's because you're fat or because you maybe have, uh, injuries, or maybe it's just because you don't like to sit a certain way that we have really adjustable seating.

So that's all been, um, some of the stuff we've done, but, um, one thing, actually, that was helpful that Cat helped me with, um, when the pandemic hit, I had to pivot pretty fast to find some other income. And one way I, I did that was to start carrying some apparel. Um, and that was one place where I had a big blindspot. Um, especially early in my life about thinking, “Oh yeah, small through large, or small through extra large, that's a range of sizes, you know?” And you realize later, like, okay, that's like half of the people in the world. It's like, what about everybody else that also wants to look amazing?

Um, so that was one thing I really started to stress too, is when I, um, started making apparel, is trying to have it go up through 4X if possible. Um, and one place actually that Cat has helped me with is, one of my last, um, apparel items I, I put out was the sweatsuit, which, you know, said it was up to 3X, but really runs quite small. Um, so it was really helpful to get a fit review from Cat, which I was so grateful for, um, which can kind of help me guide my next choices as I look for um, I'm looking for a vendor right now to, to partner with, for a sweatsuit that actually fits more people, um, and isn't so restrictive on like, the cuffs and things.

Um, but yeah, so it's kind of a combo of like continuing education, trying things out, uh, feedback and then review. And that's kind of something that, um, we use, not just with, uh, access for different bodies, but also that's something that we've been working with, um, in the tattoo shop relating to race and inclusion of  Black folks in our tattoo shop. Um, not just as, uh, clients, but also people working and, and applying tattoos. Um, it's sort of something that we have put into our mission statement about respecting all bodies, but also going that extra step of actually trying specific inclusionary tactics, essentially, and then getting the feedback from there and making changes as needed 

CP: That process that you outlined, Emilie, is like really clear. And I think that there's, it's clear to me that you're doing that. Like you just explained to me what I've seen from you, which is really special. And I also think like another piece of that is like, you're just like very open to communicating kind of like, parameters and limitations. I'm just, this is a specific example, but I'm thinking about that sweatsuit where it's like once, you know, like, okay, so we did find out that runs a little bit small and here are some things just being able to like, communicate that to people and saying, this is the cutoff, but like, I want to, like, I want to set you up for success in buying this, so I want to let you know, here's some things to think about. Um, and I just think that that sort of like being very open about those things. Um, and then also being open about your like, desire to get and receive feedback, um, is quite powerful. And I see you doing that. So I wanted, I wanted to, to call out that additional piece to all of this. It's like, that feels really important. 

ER: I appreciate that. And then I also, like, I, I can't tell you how lucky I am that I have people who like—or how lucky I feel, you know—that there are people who are willing to share that like yourself, but also, you know, one of the first shirts that I put out right away, one of my clients said, “Well, I need, I would love a size chart, you know?” And that's something that, for a lot of my life, I've had the privilege of not needing to look at a size chart because even though sizes run different ways, I could usually kind of fuss with it and make it work. Um, so that was something huge, like, oh, of course, like a size chart’s gonna help so much with online buying.

And then yeah those kinds of things. Like the specifically these pants kind of getting that feedback of like, okay, we're getting a lot of returns because they are running small. It's like, how can we set people up for success? But, um, yeah, that wouldn't be possible without people being willing to share that, which I, I just love so much. ‘Cause I do think that like, that's how we're going to grow is by seeing what works for people and then making changes, for sure.

CP: Yes. 

SB: And I was just going to say, I've been following you on social for, for quite a long time.

ER: Oh, thank you! What an honor!

SB: It's been years, years at this point. I love that I can say that because when my friend said, “Hey, you should check her out. She's fabulous.” So it's been fun to see, um, like your evolution of like even getting your own shop, too. You're truly a radical business owner. And I'm hearing just through the tone of your voice and what you've been sharing about your clients and the way you've been taking feedback is that you just have a genuine fondness and care for people, which, I don't know. I think that makes you a radical business owner, a small business owner, for sure!

ER: Oh, thank you.

SB: And you've been sharing some really, like, aspects to how you've grown your business, the thought and care you put into it and the choices you're making. I'm wondering, you know, other than like, looking at the apparel, which is really cool. I would say anybody listening, please go check it out. It's beautiful. But like, what are some of your reflections and wins on growing your business, especially in a pandemic?

ER: Yeah. Thank you so much. I, I appreciate the love so much and like, it just, it's so exciting always whenever I meet people that have followed the journey. ‘Cause it's fun. It's like, oh, like I don't have to clue you in on everything. Like, um, my, my bumps along the way, I'm like, you've been there for it. So that's, it's really lovely, thank you.

Um, yeah, I think some of the kind of crazy wins that have come out of the pandemic that I just feel so blessed for is, um, is really just the connection that I felt with the people I work with. Um, so just a little background. I was in a little private studio space, um, and had slated and, uh, signed all the paperwork to move into a much larger space, um, for April 1st, 2020. And obviously that date is, uh, is asignificant date, because March 19th was the date that, you know, we got a little Post-it on our store on our door saying, you know, you've been closed by the Minnesota Department of Health until further notice.

And, you know, we saw it coming, but it was this moment of, okay, we have some artists lined up for this new space, we have huge bills looming, what do we do? And, um, I feel really fortunate that my partner who works in nonprofits and has a lot of, um, skill and skills with team building suggested, “I know you're not really planning anything concrete right now, but why don't you just start having the meetings you were going to have anyway.?”

And I'm so glad he said that. So, you know, starting those, those first weeks, we started to Zoom, have Zoom meetings together, instead of planning like, you know, what tattoos are you going to do? Or like, what days will you work? It was, it was totally a check-in of like, okay, how do you feel between one to five? Like, you know, what is giving you joy right now? Um, and just those little check-ins like that, and this kind of bizarre blessing of the pandemic is that we, I think got really close through hardship before we even started working in the same place together. Um, and it's built this really great foundation now that we are you know, working with so many precautions in place, but in it, in the same space as each other, there's just that care and that knowledge kind of, of each other as people, more than just as like, oh yeah, you're so-and-so and you do bright colored tattoos. It's like, no, I know that you struggle with this with your mom, or like, you know that like your cat is everything to you. And so I'm going to check in with you about like, how's your cat doing? Like just things like that, which have created, I think a, um, a really cool basis of, of, uh, of a business that I did not expect at all. 

SB: That's beautiful. I mean, it sounds like you're, so people-centric with regards to how you run your business, that it's cool that you had that time to calibrate with each other and really get to know each other. So it's on every level. Wow. 

CP: Emilie, we want to know like, what is bringing you joy? Professionally, personally, both. What's, tell us, what's bringing you joy?

ER: That's a great question. I feel like right this moment, I'm getting quite a lot of joy, which I'm trying to allow myself to celebrate. I think this last year, it makes us all a little bit cautious about celebrating successes sometimes because we feel like, oh no, another issue’s gonna drop, you know? But I've, I don't know. I've just been really celebrating the connections that have been created through the shop, not just with the, um, other people that work there like I was talking about a moment ago, but I'm just finding like the people that are coming in to get tattooed. It's just like such a crazy richness. Like just, you know, yesterday tattooing somebody who, uh, was incarcerated for much of their life and just like hearing the beautiful story about like the things that they have done and their experience levels. And like, I would not normally be able to sit down and talk to that person for like four hours, but I get to for my job. And then I don't know, just kind of that, um, it feels a little bit like a little like, town square or something that we've created. So I'm really celebrating that like connection with people throughout the city, which I'm loving.

Um, I don't know. I have some friends who are getting married this summer. Some friends that are going to have babies, just kind of that moment of like, just celebration of life and that we're here. And like, it seems a bit cheesy, but I'm, I'm feeling much more grateful this year than I have probably my whole life. Um, just for the little things, because those little things are a little bit more important now than they used to be.

So, I'm also, um, I've also been making weird little rugs. Um, Nathan teases, me, my husband, he teaches, teases me that I'm making tiny rugs that are too small for anyone. Um, but whatever, I'm, I'm doing it with a lot of joy. Um, so like exploring other crafts, like other ways of making things is always one of my top joys, for sure. So that's good. 

SB: Okay. This is so specific, but like, tell me more about these rugs. Like what is the medium, how big are they?

ER: Basically it's called punch needle. I don't know, if anyone is ever interested in starting this craft, please DM me. ‘Cause I, I had some trials and tribulations initially, but it's working great now. But it's basically, it's really simple. It's like this repeated little, um, like kind of stabbing motion that you do, and it makes these little tufts on the other side of the fabric. And I got this big quilt ring from a thrift store that's like 22 inches across. So I'm making these like 22 inch-across, circular rugs. They're like very colorful. They'll probably end up on a wall somewhere. Nathan says I should sell them, and I'm like, the amount of hours I'm putting into it would make it such a—they'd be like, I’d be paid $1 an hour, or I'd be selling them for like $225. It's like, no thank you. 

SB: I think that’s what they go for honestly. Or like for that kind of textile art, but like also, you know, just, uh, in a feasible way, in 22 inches, sounds like a perfect start. 

ER: I’m not trying to be like a professional rugmaker, probably. I mean, watch this space, I guess.

SB: What would you like our audience, our listeners to know about you or your business? 

ER: Hm. I think about my business, maybe I would for people to check out all the wonderful artists and people we have in the shop. Um, a little shout out to Lauryn Barlow, who is the shop manager. Um, she's on Instagram, @MillennialNomad. Um, she's an incredible healer and bodyworker in town, and also graces us with her presence at the shop, keeping us organized and, um, she's just such a gift to be around. So check her out for bodywork. And then other artists we have, uh, Erin Armstrong. Uh, we have Lana Bosak, brand new artists Kaily McKee, myself, and then, uh, my lovely apprentice, Joy Spika, who is an incredible artist, a woman of color from town who's done a lot of, uh, aerosol work over the years and is transitioning into a super boss tattoo artist. So just kind of checking out all those people, um, as well as Black Garnett Books, which shares the space with us right now. Um, they're a Black-owned, a bookstore, that's doing a little pop-ups in our space, um, until they find a permanent spot. But, um, yeah, just like check out the other lovely people! That's my shout out. 

SB: It was a good shout out right there. All of those people are fabulous. 

CP: Emilie, thanks for telling your story, as—

CP: + SB: —a matter of fat!

[THEME MUSIC FADES IN AND OUT]

CP: Oh, such a great conversation with Emilie! Such a delight to chat with her, and Saraya, we gotta talk about it. Let's share some of the things that we're taking away from our chat with Emilie.

SB: It's fun to do this debrief. I don't think we did a very good job of it in previous seasons, but I've really enjoyed breaking down a little bit of what we talked about. And also, listen, I, I did that when I asked questions in the interview and I wish I could just ask a plain and simple question, but here we are.

CP: We’re not always good at that. We're like, here, we have, and we have the questions written y'all. And yet, we are like, I did the same thing, Saraya. I'm like, let me just like talk for seven sentences that are not needed before I get to my question for you.

SB: Maybe you all don't need to hear the debrief, but we have thoughts, per usual. I just, the overwhelming one for me was how, how much—and I think this is common for myself and other people in my life—how much grace, we are willing to extend to other people, and like love and support, and yet cannot do that internally. And so when she was talking about how she would, she would hear people just denigrate themselves, and she'd be like, “No, we don't do that here.” And then realizing like, “Oh, like, but I, I do it here in my mind or my heart,” was just, oh, that hit home. And so, um, I was really grateful for her to share that. And then also just using the term beloved, um, in reference to people, I just, I love that right now. So yeah. What did, what, what stood out to you?

CP: So similar to, to, um, what you first mentioned about like hearing extending grace to others, but, uh, it being a little bit more difficult to like, kind of change that with—or see that, change that, give that within ourselves—um, that came through in her story when she shared that, like her body has changed over time, um, and is larger now. And when she was sharing that—which, by the way, I think she shared really beautifully. I think there's like different experiences and it's like for you and me, we've been fat our whole lives. And so we haven't had to like come into, um, we haven't had to grapple with bodies changing dramatically later in life, you know? So I am always really appreciative when folks talk about that in a way that's like, like Emilie, did she acknowledged, like “This was new for me, but I know that many people have been, been experiencing things like this, you know, for forever.”

So I liked how she shared that, but kind of related, she talked about how she would look at her, like plus-size friends or, you know, people around her felt like, so it's like, oh yes, you look great. Or like, so happy for you in your body. Or just like, love, you know, your vibe and your style, the size you are. But it was hard for her to feel that for herself. Um, and similarly, like similar to what you were sharing. I just think that that is really relatable for so, so many of us. 

SB: Yeah, I just I'm struck by what that means, too, when you grow and change kind of dramatically, especially when you have a little bit higher level of emotional intelligence, I think we just developed, developmentally have that more. And, because she was also talking about how the family patterns and like behaviors, especially around eating, um, when that becomes relevant to us. So I think even if your body hasn't necessarily changed dramatically as you've grown up, um, or gotten older, like we do sometimes as adults realize, oh, that was kind of a weird thing. Like having some space apart from families to notice patterns or assess that. And so I think that was pretty interesting for her to bring up too, as another revelation.

CP: You’re right. And that's a great point. And I think that that extends, that relates to bodies, you know, and body size and eating habits and diet culture, and also extends to like, most things about what happened in our families, right? It's just like time away. You're like, wait, what? Like that's what people call trauma.  

SB: Maybe that’s something I shouldn't be doing, whether that's related to disordered eating or just like relationship patterns.

CP: Yeah, totally. I think that's just very very real. Yeah, I, something that when she, when Emilie was telling her story as a matter of fat and how, um, I just was picturing like this sweet little bespectacled Emilie in Europe as a young child, like in her observation that like sticking out, it's not the way to be like fitting in as is like what I'm being pushed to do, you know, like what our culture is pushing us to do. And it's just like, so that was just like sad and also so real to, um, observe that at such a young age. I thought it was, um, yeah, I, I appreciated that as part of her story and just, yeah. The lil image of cute Emilie really stuck with me. 

SB: When she was talking about that, cause that's what I focused on as well, but. It kind of came up to being like the title of the movie moment for me. And what I mean by that is her shop is called Merci tattoo. And because she has that history in France, I was like, oh, okay. Merci Tattoo. All right. I think that connects some dots for me that I had a question previously. 

CP: Oh yeah! And you know, speaking of her shop, I just, I love how she shared, um, you know, going, working in other shops, being in other shops, noticing like, what was lacking, who wasn't present in those spaces, and then using those observations to inform her choices for starting her business. You know, I stan a business, like a values-driven business owner. So I really, um, as someone like from the outside, looking in, uh, at her business and her as a business owner and also like a customer who patronizes her business, I just think so highly of her and everything that she's up to. And I love being able to have a little bit of the like, um, hearing the story about how that all came to be.

SB: Absolutely. Okay, so we did not talk about this at the, at the top of the show, but because we were really focusing on our decisions around tattoos, or like my lack of decision is what it comes down to. I think part of it is just that I have never gone into—so I have a, like a few piercings I've got, I had my ears gauged for a minute back in the day, but like I never went to those places and felt like I wanted to lay in there longer, or like, that I was welcome or celebrated, and so I think that also feeds into it too. It's like, one, finding an artist is overwhelming stylistically, and then two, when I go into these spaces and I just see, you know, uh, like seemingly0white girls with headdresses like Indigenous made-up headdresses. Or like other just weird things that I don't understand, because I think they're part of tattoo culture as well, there's like a lot of history behind that, but like, I see that and I'm like, I don't like it. I don't like it. It's not my vibe. I don't want to support that. Um, and I think, you know, there's a big difference in having someone who's willing to go through, I don't have a better word for it, but like the toxic behaviors that are, um, kind of bred in those environments to finally get to a point where they could be like, yeah, I want to create my own space where I can celebrate people, where people want to come and be in community with each other.

CP: Yeah. 

SB: So I think that's pretty wonderful. So it's definitely, I think I didn't even consciously think about that too. It's like, what does it mean when you actually want to be in a space and get it from an artist who has the values that you have too? 

CP: It just feels so much better, right? And I think, um, kind of reflecting on that with what we were sharing earlier, I think for me, like—’cause you and I had talked about this and I think you had asked me, like, “How did you feel in those other tattoo spaces?” And I didn't feel especially great about the places, um, but I felt great because I was there like, with someone I loved for the most part. And I think that's, that's like what it was for me.

And as we were talking about this, I shared like, you know, typically I get tattoos with friends or a friend is there, um, getting something with me or, you know, coming with me. Um, but when I got my tattoo with Emilie, like no one was there because it was, you know, it is a pandemic. But Emilie, I think, I would love to call her a friend and just being able to talk to her the whole time. It was like, it felt just as good as it ever did, and then better because like the space itself was so intentionally crafted to make me feel comfortable and make me feel at home. And also just like, looked so beautiful and be in this like, oh, just, the vibes, the vibes are so good there Saraya. I just, we, we got to get in touch with Emilie about our Matter of Fat tattoos when, when the, when that time comes.

SB: She's got a waitlist though.

CP: I know, we’ve got to get on that.

[THEME MUSIC FADES IN AND OUT]

SB: It's time for the Dirt and Discourse. This is where we dive into the excitement and discomfort around relevant pop and cultural happenings. 

CP: Yeah, and today we're gonna talk about size charts! And specifically like, what I would qualify as inflated size charts. You know, when you go to like, look at this garment, that's listed as a 5XL and it fits more like a size 20. Um, brands are out here lying to look more credible, I imagine. Uh, and we have thoughts. 

SB: We have lots of thoughts. And like, we are going to get more into this realm of us feeling like they're lying based on a sizing available for “everybody,” right? But also, I just want to acknowledge that sizing for clothes, particularly women's clothes, has always been wildly different from brand to brand. And I just, that feels like a lie. That's a scam in and of itself!

CP: It's already scam!

SB: It’s already a scam. Scams built on scams.

CP: Scams on scams on scams on scams.

SB: Bands on bands on bands. Brands on brands on brands. Scams on scams on scams. Um, I will stop now though. Cat, you, you please please share the Dirt and the Discourse of it all. 

CP: I love it. No, and Saraya, you are absolutely right. Like this is a scam from the beginning and it just gets scammier and worse as we go along.

So I think there's like, kind of two main categories of this. Well—yeah, so there's many brands that like, just have sizes that fit significantly smaller than what they say. So when I say like a size chart, I mean like what they qualify as like, you know, the, the bust, the waist and the hips measurement, usually in inches, for the different sizes. So, um, for many of us like me, I wear a size 22 or a size 24. I'm pretty familiar with like the, like the, numbers that are associated with that. And so when I go to a brand I'm not familiar with, or a brand, I think might fit differently, I pull up their size chart. I look at their 3X and, or their size 22 or whatever, and I look to see what the numbers are. And sometimes they are just so dramatically off that it's not as if it's like, oh, we're using a little liberty here. We're making it a little bit bigger, a little smaller. It's just like outright lies. And I think many of us are familiar with some of these brands. I will list a few of them that I see, like that are kind of in the knowns here. 

SB: Perpetrators. 

CP: Perpetrators! Savage Fenty is high on this list. 

SB: Uh, hurts me. Because I love Bad Gal Riri.

CP: I mean how can we not? 

SB: I love her. Robyn…Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Carry on. 

CP: Forever 21 Plus. All of the brands, like, I don't know if you're familiar with Rainbow stores, all of those brands; Shein clothes; Fabletics is not as bad, but it's pretty bad. Um, this brand called Tatyana that like, uh, I think was maybe tied into, or at one point, had been connected with Bettie Page; and then also Unique Vintage, like anything that's vintage-y, it's like they, it feels like they're compelled to make those size charts smaller in effort to like maybe appear more vintage, but it's actually just more confusing.

And I'll say, you know, this is something that I think about a lot because of my job, but many of the brands I've mentioned, some folks will say that those are like juniors plus sizing to help make sense of the fact that they are just so much smaller, but like, take a Forever 21 Plus. Like are 3XL is a size 20, but they don't say that, they give their, on the, on the tag, you'll read it. It says 3XL and then there'll be sizes for other countries, and it says that the UK size is a 24, which translates to a US size of 20. Um, but they're trying to like, make folks think that it's a 3 and it just serves to confuse and frustrate people.

I think another category of all of this is like stuff you find on Amazon, many different brands or non-branded items. And I, I, you know, I think people often will say like, you know, that small stuff that's made in China. And I don't like that language. I think that that's probably like, not, that always feels a little like, gross to me. Um, I don't think that that's what's necessarily going on here that like every garment made in China is just like using a different, size chart,  I think it's just clear that there are brands that, um, have adapted a size chart in which a 5XL or a 6XL is really a size 20, which is like a 2XL, um, and it just serves to confuse us and make them look good, potentially, unless you are someone who wears those sizes.
That's what makes me the most mad. I feel like, like this with many other things, um, it's only the people that are most impacted by it that like realize it's an issue or, you know, kind of care about it. So there's a big swath of folks wearing sizes that are not plus-sized or wearing smaller plus-size sizes who are very excited about these brands and happy to like, you know, it feels like, happy to sing their praises when there's a whole segment of the plus-sized population, just like can't wear the stuff. Um, and that feels gross. 

SB: It also feels like they're finally listening to what we've been saying, and many people before us have been saying like, oh yeah, like “We have money too, um, we have money too, and we'd like to put that into clothing and other things that help us, you know, live, live comfortably in the world,” and yet, so they're realizing that and they're like, oh, and also it's on trend to be inclusive in some ways. So let's say that we do this for everybody, already doing a poor job with the way that sizing is done and being done so erratically, and then also other brands now saying like, oh yeah, we are inclusive. We have all the sizes and they certainly do not have all the sizes. 

CP: Yeah. Well, it feels like there's a lot of brands lately that are patting themselves on the back for going up to a size 3XL, which is usually 22, 24. Sometimes they're 24, 26 or some of these brands, right? Um, and then, and some of these exact brands love to use the language, like you mentioned, “We have inclusive sizing, sizing for everybody! Something for everyone!” And like, that is undeniably a lie!

SB: (sighs) It's just a sigh of being tired. Sorry, it wasn’t a good reaction!

CP: Do you react know that brand Summersalt, have you been seeing all of the swimsuits being served to us on all of the socials lately?

SB: All of the people too, that I choose to follow, like, you know, plus-size influencers or whatever that I choose to follow have been yeah, featured in Summersalt suits. 

CP: I hope that Summersalt is paying them so much money to look at the camera in the size 24 suits that is the largest size and say, “Swimwear for everybody”! They better be making so much money because that lie is heard round the plus-size world, ok?

SB: (laughs) I'm sure, but like the thing is the folks who are the furthest away from these sizes aren't even paying attention still.

CP: Zero attention.

SB: I don’t even know—’cause it's been, one, sure, this hasn't really been a thing before where people are like, we have the most sizes, especially from companies that have had historically had more straight sizes only and exclusively.

But I just think like, I don't know, fat folks, or depending on where you are on the size spectrum—and also like, call me out on this, right, ‘cause I'm just one person—but I feel like the further you are away from straight sizes, the less hope you have for anybody to actually follow through on any of this.

And yet I wonder what this means for people who are on the other end of the size spectrum to be like, oh, this is great. Like, I feel really validated in putting my money towards this, or even straight sized folks, you know, putting money into it. It feels very greenwashing to me, like trying to make it seem eco-friendly and supportive when it truly, truly is not.

CP: Yeah. It’s that type of vibe where it's like, we're painting this picture. But like, if you actually look at the facts, like that's just not the situation. 

SB: The data is not present.

CP: The data is not there. And I can, I mean, I'm not someone like, I can't speak from personal experience of clothing myself, but like working in a plus-sized retail shop where I interact with lots of plus-size clothes all the time, Saraya your assessment is right. Like, the larger your plus-size, the more difficult it is to find things because so many brands stop at 3XL. Um, you know, when we talked about it here or who was I talking about—the brand Athleta, or maybe they call it Ath-lay-tah, no I think it’s Athleta—

SB: I thought it was Ath-leet-ah.

CP: Maybe it's Ath-leet-ah! Well, come for us people. We are saying it in—well there's, one of these ways is probably the one, probably not the one I said hopefully, but I think we know what I'm talking about. They, um, recently they've had up to 3XL for a while, but they recently made a commitment to start making everything in 3XL. I don't know if they're there yet, but I think earlier this year they actually sent out a mailer and the cover was all curvy people. I don't know if it was all plus-sized people, but all people who were, you know, you wouldn't always expect to see on the cover of an activewear advertisement. And that was really, really cool. And they've been like, talking about it a lot, and they surely have been advertising to me a lot. Um, and even still it's like this isn't a full plus-size range. This is, this cuts off at a certain, at a certain place. Um, and it's just like a lot of talk without, without, you know, and it's like some action. Is this like a two steps forward, one step back thing? Or a one step forward, two steps back thing? I do not know. 

SB: (laughs) Um, I kind of want to go back to, so they, we were talking about a little bit before, which is how you pronounce name brands. So you, you said when you said “SHE-in.” I say “shine.” 

CP: What is that? I say “SHE-in.” It used to be called, like “She Inside”. Um, and I think that's why I call it—

SB: —Oh so S-H-E-I-N  is the, yeah, ok.

CP: Yeah. I've heard it pronounced the way you pronounce it I've heard it pronounced “SHE-in.” I've heard it pronounced “sheen.” Um, maybe I'm saying it wrong as well. 

SB: No, no, I don't know. I truly don't know. ‘Cause I've never ordered.

CP: Please avoid them. 

SB: Um, but like there is this whole culture—well, yeah—around fast fashion with, specifically with them and like people doing, especially on TikToK, doing like $500 Shein hauls where they get so many clothes and they try it on. And like many people are like, that's kind of wild. That's a waste of money. It's supporting an organization that—or a business—that is unethical, um, doing a lot of bad practices and that, sure, you know, I agree with them. And also I tried looking at their sizing one time and I was like, I literally have no concept of any of their sizes when I look at these things. So like, if these people weren't doing hauls, I would have no idea how that garment looks on a human body without someone doing that.

CP: Yeah, it’s really—I have so many thoughts about that brand. And I think like, part of the reason it's necessary—or, not necessary—but part of the reason why these hauls are so popular is that like their, their size charts are really confusing. So from what I understand, typically on a size chart, let's talk, Torrid. If you look at a Torrid size chart, the size chart, like, it doesn't matter if you're looking at like this top or that top or this dress. If you click on the size chart, usually it's the same. It'll say like, okay, size 22. Here's the bust measurement. Here's the waist measurement. Here's the hips measurement. And like, that is the standard by which they design their things.

For Shein. It's like, they have, it's like someone lays out the garment and they measure it specifically for each different item. So like some might say that that could be actually more helpful.vI think that it is infinitely less helpful because you don't know, like, if you—so with the example I just shared, at Torrid, if you're like, okay, cool. I wear a size 22. That's how my measurements add up. I know that for most of their things, I'm going to be wearing a size 22 or 3X. Cool. You're good.

But for Shein, and it's like, you have to, you have to put your, look at the size chart for each specific thing to kind of assess, “Could this fit on my body?” Um, with no kind of sizing as a starting point. So I think that that is part of the reason why these hauls are so popular, it's a real mystery how these things will, will, um, fit people. But I, and I know like—

SB: —It’s a whole activity!—

CP: —Okay, fast fashion, we know is rough, and also, I don't think we need to go on and on about it, but like, it is clear that for some folks—especially plus-size folks—when we know we don't have the availability or accessibility of, for lots of brands, sometimes you just need to wear what you can afford. Um, and so like, if you don't have other options, they are an option. And also they're, um, like more blatant with their unethical practices around stealing designs from, from especially indie designers than other places. I think that probably everybody is stealing designs from somebody or another, you know, I, I don't, we can't think that Target has like just the most brilliant people that work for it. And they, like, all of their designs are unique to their brains and weren't influenced by other many other designers, you know, that they're referencing for their things fashion and otherwise. Um, but Shein is really blatant about it. Oh, and, Saraya, do you know what happened to me the other day? 

SB: I do not, what happened?

CP: Okay. So I was Googling an indie designer, Monif C. Um, someone had asked a question about swimwear. And so I wanted to like, go to their website to see if I could find some stuff, whatever. So in Google, google.com, I put Monif C in, the full name of the brand, and the first thing to be advertised to me, the first link to click, was Shein.

SB: Oh no!

CP:  And then I had to scroll down a couple to get to Monif C.'s website. And it just like, I guess I don't know the inner workings of Google, but I do a little bit, in so far as they try to sell me a lot of stuff for the shop. Anyway, I'm pretty positive that like Shein has like listed Monif C as a search term that they hope to pop up under and they are paying for the privilege to come up first when I look for that brand instead of the brand itself popping up first, and that just feels so predatory and so icky. And I know like business, internet, I think this like, relates in some ways like net neutrality in ways that I don't understand and probably need to listen to some more podcasts about, but like it just, makes, it's another tick in like the negative column in my book for that brand.

SB: Yeah. Ugh. I, I don't know. It’s so convoluted to me, just how this all comes about and like fast fashion in particular, but also sizing. Like, when I think about the industry, I'm like, what is the benefit to having such erratic sizing? 

CP: Right. I don't know yet. I'm, I would love, I would love to know. I have to believe that—and maybe this is naïve, not naïve, or like maybe this is, um, I am actually sure this is only part of the picture—but I do think that brands benefit by making it seem like they offer larger sizes than they do. I think for the general public to see, “Oh, they have extra small to 4XL? Wow!” I think that that's like saying something. ‘Cause you mentioned this earlier on, it's like, we're moving to a place culturally where like it is regarded in a positive light when you do have larger sizes to offer. And at the same time, I don't think these brands really actually care so much about the folks on the higher end of that size spectrum, and are happy to make it seem like they have a lot larger sizes than they do. 

SB: I think that goes both ways. I mean, not, um, that last point, but just about, we think it's culturally more favorable to have bigger sizing and like broadcast that, but I don't think that's necessarily tru. Because think about like Lulu Lemon who has set forward a very rigid standard of saying “We will not have any sizes,” or like, was it Brandy Melville? There's like these weird offshoots of being like, if you shop here, you recognize what your size is, and you, you take basically a political standard in my opinion on what you support and what you believe in. 

CP: I think that's so interesting. ‘Cause like that sort of was the like, underlying, um, thought for years and years and years and years and years, right? Like that was—people weren't explicitly saying that, but that's what they were saying by only offering up a size XL, it was like, “Oh, if you want to wear the clothes here, you need to change your body, and too bad for you if you don't want to change your body.” Um, but it's interesting cause it, it sort of feels like as we move maybe a little bit away from that, there are folks like you've just mentioned that like, feel then the need to like double down on that even more explicitly.

SB: Yeah, which, okay. This is also interesting too. Uh, wow. This, this Dirt and Discourse is going much farther than I ever thought it would. So, um, Kardashians, right? Let's talk about the Kardashians. Let’s talk about SKIMS! Because you have, you have like, ordered SKIMS to see what it was like. What, I just want to, like, you don't have to get super deep into it, but what was your take on the items that you ordered?

CP: It was awful. And I will say I ordered SKIMS like early on. I think that they have made some changes to their sizing, and I think that they're one of those places where it's like, depending upon what it is, it'll fit different. But I did, I got a pair of their, um, like I've got a bandeau bra top and then a pair of their, um, like shorts. Like I was like, “Oh, if these like, like really long, kind of my skin tone color shorts work for me, this is going to be a game changer under skirts and dresses instead of my regular bike shorts.” Um, it was, they were just really, really, really tight. I sized up, I looked at the size chart. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty good at that. And I just, it was so small, actually reminds me of a reel I saw the other day: I know SKIMS just launched, uh, recently launched like a maternity stuff, um, to support the belly, which like I, it’s a whole thing of like, can you please, like, you should not be wearing shapewear when you're pregnant. I'm like, well, I am not a doctor, but I just, that feels very wrong to me.

Um, but like this person was like, “I looked at it, I like, ordered my size—” they appeared to be a straight-sized person—and they held up this thing that looked like it was for a large doll. (Saraya laughs) It's like, no, too small. It's not—and I get through that. It's like compression, so it's going to appear a little smaller when it's not on, but like, I just think they've really mucked up their size charts dramatically. Sorry. I really went on a tangent there. Is that what, the information you were looking for Saraya? 

SB: I mean, it's useful. It's useful in that, um, I was watching, there's a person on Instagram—who I actually went to middle school with—but, um, their handle is @Kardashian_Kolloquium, which I know you've seen their stuff before.

CP: Love them! Mhmm!

SB: And so they, they do a really good job of breaking down the Kardashians and applying different theories and concepts to the family—

CP: —In a very smart way, yes!

SB: Yeah, I really dig it. Um, but they were talking about how it appears that, well, Kate Moss is going to be the face of SKIMS moving forward. And so they were really talking about how there is this shift and kind of, um, full-circle moment of Kim, who was for a long time, looked down on as trash and like not fashion and bringing in one of the original supermodels from the ‘90;s to be the face of this brand and how it might be, especially with, uh, SKIMS being somehow part of the Olympic uniforms. I don't know if you've heard that.

CP: Oh yeah, I guess I did hear that.

SB: Yeah. About it becoming like this luxury brand too. And so to know that like Kim has sizing—albeit, bad sizing, apparently—with SKIMS, but that it could be a luxury brand is kind of interesting if we're thinking about the realm of sizing in like luxury or luxe brands going forward. Because she started out not being luxe or SKIMS wasn't luxe to begin with.

CP: It's just like, we really went to a whole yes, yes. And yes. 

SB: What does the future hold? And also, I'm not trying to buy any SKIMS anytime soon, but that's just me.

CP: I've heard people love, like I've heard not all bad things about them. I will just say that the other things I ordered were just a real disappointment.

SB: Maybe we should do a SKIMS haul for a video. Just kidding.

CP: No, that's something that was gonna hit the pocketbook a little differently than a Shein one. Okay. We gotta wrap this up, but I think as we do, as we kind of close out this Dirt and Discourse, I'd like to highlight something that you mentioned earlier, Saraya, which is just like, if you don't wear these sizes, like, what does patronizing these brands mean to you? Like, is that a choice you want to make? Like, be thoughtful with your dollars; if that is a choice that you want to make, okay. Um, but like, don't let these places fool you and don't fool yourself into thinking that just because somewhere says they have up to 4XL, 5XL, 6XL, that they really do. Um, and if you don't wear plus sizes and need a little reality check, um, you can just DM me. I'll give you, I'll give you the info.

[THEME MUSIC FADES IN AND OUT

SB: Perhaps you're wondering why we came in so strong with Targets references on the top of the episode, perhaps you're not, and now you're being reminded and are maybe just like a little bit curious. Well, we have something really fun to share.

CP: Oh, we really do. So a couple episodes ago, we shared that we had a fun filming project with Alec Fischr of Fischr Media. And one of the videos from this Minnesota reaction series is live. It's us and other Minnesotans reacting to, well, you know, the Target Lady SNL skit
SB: TMI, miss girl! (Cat laughs) I hadn't seen it in a long, long time, but we had a lot of fun watching and reacting and we think you will too. So make sure to check out the video link in our show notes on the website.

CP: Yeah. Also on the website, in addition to those show notes and that link, you can find transcripts, info about Matter of Fat, links to all of our socials, access to older episodes and info about our next Podluck. And if you love the pod and want to help with expenses that we've personally shouldered for much of the last four years, you can send us some Fat Cash.

{CLIP FROM INTO SAYING “MATTER OF FAT” CUTS IN, CUTS OUT]

CP+SB: (sing-song voices) Caaash!~

CP: We're on Venmo @MatterofFatPod, and you can find more info about Fat Cash also on our website.

SB: If you are so kind as to share some Fat Cash with us, we would love to shout you out in an upcoming episode. This episode is dedicated to Maura and a generous friend of the pod who'd like to remain anonymous.

CP: We also love to give shoutouts for reviews in Apple Podcasts, so pop over there and show us some love. Fat Cash, reviews, shoutouts; they are never expected, but always so, so appreciated. We love them and we appreciate your support. 

SB: Yes, we do. 

CP: Well, I mean, I can't wait to work together again. 

SB: Yeah. So until next time when we're back with another episode of—

CP + SB: —Matter of Fat!

[THEME MUSIC FADES IN AND OUT]

CP: Was that too clunky for me at the end? 

SB: No, that's fine. 

CP: Also, sorry, I didn't realize I was on there twice. Boom, boom.

SB: I liked, I loved that moment. I couldn’t see anything, I was just like, “She'll figure it out.”

CP: You can fix pause. You can cut that pause out.