S5E4: Minisodes Revisited
Season 5, Episode 4:
Minisodes Revisited
Released on August 17th, 2022. For complete episode info, visit this page!
CP: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities. Hi, I'm Cat Polivoda; a local fat feminist and shop owner. I'm joined by my co-host and producer, Saraya Boghani.
SB: Hi, I’m Saraya. I'm a fat, multiracial, Minneapolitan millennial.
CP: On Matter of Fat. We're here to talk about the cultural politics of fat liberation with a Midwest perspective.
SB: And we have been doing just that for like, about five seasons now. Therefore, we thought it would be worth a revisit to some of our most loved minisodes.
CP: Yeah. So worth it. And, okay, so just to be clear, this is not us like, re-editing our episodes and playing them back for you. No no. While we realize we've been doing the pod for so long, like things have changed, our perspectives have changed, the world has changed and evolved, especially in terms of understanding around fat liberation and body positivity, so they're worth a revisit.
SB: Yeah, exactly. So it's worth a conversation. We're gonna take a little time with you today to do a recap and discussion of our minisodes on body positivity, fat liberation, fatphobia, and diet culture.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
CP: Some of you may have listened to these minisodes in season three. For others maybe you're like, “What are you even talking about?” And I would say, whichever camp you are in, you're in the right place right now.
SB: Even if this is your first episode you've ever listened to, welcome, welcome! And this isn't a bad place to start, necessarily. It may be a little confusing ‘cuz we're off of our normal flow, right? Like, we're not interviewing someone, we're not doing a fat dish where we just chat, we're not doing an actual minisode. So it’s a little weird episode for us.
CP: Yeah, this is a weird episode for us, but like, an exciting one too.
SB: Truly, we did a really impressive job–if I do say so myself–of packing a lot of content into very, very short episodes. And that's not, like I said, that's not what we do. We're very chatty, we like to have–to steal one of Cat’s phrases–freewheeling conversations.
CP: I'm so glad you included that. We do. We've really, we've really moved into a lot of freewheeling convos here on Matter of Fat.
SB: Because of that, we're going to do a quick recap of each of those minisodes that we mentioned; what we still enjoy from those minisodes; and any changes or updates that would be worthwhile to explore in a freewheeling conversation.
CP: I mean, it's our final season, so it's nice to revisit certain parts of our project. And if you've been listening this season, you've noticed we've done some updates on previous guests and things like that, so we really see this kind of fitting in in the spirit of this reflection as part of season five.
SB: I you haven't listened to those minisodes, I think it might be worthwhile; even though we're doing a recap and talking about some of these things, we got a lot in there that we can't cover.
CP: We sure did! (Both laugh) And I think that's actually–it's so interesting, and we'll probably get into this more, but like this was–so, season three started off with these minisodes. They were the first things that Saraya and I recorded remotely.
We had been recording in the studio at KFAI the whole season one and two, and then when pandemic life started, we learned how to record remotely. So in one sense, like, I'm really proud of–well, I am for a lot of reasons. I'm proud of those minisodes. But on the other hand, like, you can tell it was one of the first things that we did remotely. (Both laugh) ‘Cuz it was all very new for us.
SB: And also, it is new. And the reason we get to revisit it is because this conversation has extended. I mean, we weren't the first and only people talking about this, just to be clear. Like we're not the first people to do a podcast about body positivity or fat lib. But it's interesting how some of the work that we were doing now is like, expounded upon and gone into greater detail with like one of our favorite podcasts, Maintenance Phase. And these lil minisodes came out before that and yet there's some, like, mirroring happening in that content, which is really exciting.
CP: Yeah. And I don't, I don't know. I doubt that like, Michael Hobbes and Aubrey Gordon were like, listening to Matter of Fat and we provided inspiration in any way for them–
SB: –Oh no. No, no, no.
CP: But I think that it is cool. I mean, I just feel like kind of impressed with us that we came up with these minisode topics and this level of like, I don't know, exploration and reflection around certain pieces of information before we had ever like, listened to Maintenance Phase or known that that was–seen that happen in another podcast form.
SB: Yeah. So like, to reiterate this, I think we've done a good job of emphasizing this, but this is just another example of how when we were putting this together, there were some conversations happening, but clearly those conversations have expanded on such–a larger scale than what we could have even imagined when we came out with them.
CP: Mm-hmm.
SB: Which is like, very reassuring because we talk about a lot of awful things; hard things; difficult, challenging things. But to know that even these concepts that we talked about years ago have like prospered and grown in people's minds and their dialogues, is just really really heartwarming.
CP: Yeah.
SB: So that's where I'm at.
CP: Same, and that like, that conversation is continuing. I kind of think in that spirit, we are also continuing the conversation. So let's get started with one of our first minisodes on body positivity. Saraya, you ready for a little recap of our body positivity minisode?
SB: Stay ready so you don't need to get ready, is what I have to say in regards to that.
CP: Wow. (Both laugh) Um, ok. So we, it was just like such a delight, and a lot of LOLs, relistening to this. Because like we mentioned, we just packed so much info in. But, so, for this body positivity episode, I don't know if you remember, but we a couple times referenced that we were like MythBusters, I think we said—
SB: Oh brother–
CP: “–We’re your favorite fat Midwestern MythBusters ready to talk about body positivity.”
And you know, in our intro I think we had sort of assumed that people listening would be expecting us to sing the praises of body positivity. But of course, that's not where we stand. But as I was listening I was kind of wondering like, really, I don't even–I don't know if that's actually what people were thinking.
I don't know why we were so like, into this myth MythBusters setup of it all.
SB: Listen, when we try to come up with those intros, sometimes it takes us down very weird roadways is all I have to say.
CP: That's true.
SB: Just commit to the bit. We'll do it.
CP: We, we have, we have, and we did.
For just like a quick little recap, body positivity–I'll offer a definition that we shared in detail in the, the minisode–but, body positivity is a social movement rooted in the belief that all bodies deserve respect regardless of form, size and appearance; and it's a movement that values body autonomy and can, as we see it, can go beyond just body size.
So, you know, I, there are a lot of things I loved about this episode; and there were also, you know, things that maybe I would've changed. Like, looking back on it, I think one of the things that I maybe would've liked to do differently is just like, be a little bit meaner. If that like–(Laughs) I feel like–
SB: –That's the most Cat thing. (Both laugh) In 2022 versus 2020. Like yes, absolutely.
CP: I guess like, we–so we spent a good deal of time, like, being skeptical and critical of body positivity and also sharing the ways in which we think that the movement has merit. Specifically like, you know–well at least at the time of recording Saraya, you and I really saw body positivity as, like, a good entry point for many folks. Like, we saw people kind of coming into more like radical understandings about their bodies, maybe through body positivity, and then being able to move more toward that liberation, and also like appreciation of intersecting identities and, you know, other systems of oppression that are impacting people all kind of tied together.
I don't know. We had said–and I still believe this, and I'm interested to know if you do–we had said like, “Get 'em in with the body positivity, stick around for the fat liberation,” or something to that effect. And well, I honestly still feel that way. I'm wondering, do you still feel that way?
SB: I mean, I do. I'm curious what you mean by meaner, because–
CP: Oh, meaner, okay. So we were, we sang the praises of body positivity in a few ways; and then also, you know, share lots of cons. Like it's been so watered down that it's essentially meaningless. It's incredibly commercialized, it lacks intersectionality and it pushes everyone to like, love our bodies, even if that's not possible or doable or desirable, you know?
And I was like, when we talked about being MythBusters at the beginning, I was like, “Oh, buckle up for this scathing review that we offered.” And I would've been a little more scathing, I think, I think I would've liked to be a little more, even more critical of fat liberation–excuse me, woof–a little more critical of body positivity in this episode.
SB: This took a real turn, this here podcast. No no no, you’re good.
I agree. And also, I don't know. I think it is still an entrance point, and when we made those minisodes it was really a primer for ourselves. Like, honestly, we had been talking about the concepts for a long time, but we wanted to make it accessible. And like, in the spirit of that, I think we didn't wanna be too scathing and too harsh if that's where people were at when they were listening to it for the first time.
CP: That's a really good point. And hey, you bring up, you kind of set this up, like, I wanted to know: something I did like a lot about this–we brought this into all of these episodes is, in the intro we mentioned that we talk about a lot about different things on the podcast, and sometimes we use words, phrases, or concept that might be unfamiliar or could use a deeper dive. And like, that's kind of how we presented the “Okay so, in this minisode, we're talking about,” you know, the topic, and I really like that. I also remember like, early on in season one, sometimes we would use words and our moms would be like, “What does that mean?” And we would talk more about it.
And so I do, I appreciate this idea of like, taking the time to talk about some basics that we might–like we use words or phrases or ideas very just like matter-of-factly, and to consider that other people just like, might not know what's meant by that. So I appreciated the, how we went into things more in depth in these episodes.
SB: And so I think like being scathing at that point just gelled with what the point of us stepping back, right? ‘Cause I think I distinctly remember when I found out what body positivity was and I was like, “Oh my goodness gracious, this is, you know, earth-shattering. This is totally different and also a lot to take in.” And so it really is a spectrum, and I think it's just telling of where you’re at and where I'm at that we're so like, “What is that?” Especially about how much more commercialized it is now than ever before.
CP: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SB: Your disdain is warranted. I don't know that I would change it if we were to redo it now.
CP: Yeah. I guess, I don't know if I would either. I was just expecting me, us to be meaner–
SB: –More critical–
CP: –More critical. Yes. That's the better way to say it. But also too, like, we use the word “body positive” in the tagline of our podcast, you know, so there's usefulness–
SB: –In five seasons we’ve never changed it. So, here it is.
CP: We sure didn't. I'm trying to think of some other things I wanted to share. Oh, I liked how we spent–well, I will say, as I was listening to it, this was one of our quicker ones. It was like 11 minutes or something. 12 minutes. Like we packed so much into this. And so I just wanted more, more and more. And I know that was not the point of this, like the reason we didn't put more and more and more is that it wouldn't have been a quick, easy explainer, you know?
SB: We had to shave down so much and be so thoughtful with our words to pack everything in that, I think listening back to them and I'm like, “I'm sorry, what was that sentence that was just said? I think it's important, but I can't follow it.” So.
CP: Yeah. Well, remember how much we researched for these? We researched so much. We read so much and made, just like–we would read, we would make notes, we'd make the notes and just scripts, we would make the scripts edited more. We just, there was a lot of writing that went into this process, and I think now–especially because our conversations are more freewheeling (both laugh)–it was luckily, we really noticed how structured and scripted those were, you know?
SB: Yeah, that's true.
CP: Remember we talked–one of the–I mean, of course we used like, tons of quotes from different people, but one of the things I was really happy that we talked about was we referenced Caleb Luna's article about superfat erasure. This article called “Superfat Erasure: Four Ways Smaller Fat Bodies Crowd the Conversation,” and I was really proud of how we made sure that that was part of what we discussed in the body positivity conversation as well as the fat liberation one, which we'll talk about more. It reminded me of this tweet I saw recently from DiscoveringCasey, who by the way–Saraya, we can share, right?--Casey will be on our podcast later this season as an interview guest. But they had this tweet recently that said:
“Dear small fats: what straight size people did to body positivity is what you are doing to larger fat bodies, excluding them even in their own spaces.”
And I just really, I wanna make sure that we're continuing to bring that up and to prioritize superfat folks, um, in conversations around fatness and any kind of body conversation. So that's something I liked about the minisode, and it just reminded me of literally this tweet that I saw the other day that I wanted to share too.
SB: That's kind of cool, because we talked about making content that was evergreen or always useful, and the fact that that at least still aligns with something that's important and true for us today is a hallmark of like, our goals and our intentions aligning with that. So, that’s cool.
CP: I'm trying to think of the other things that I would like to change or add or amend. Oh, okay. I have two that I need to share before I move on.
Number one: I would like to amend how hard I was on these minisodes.
SB: Say it again? Please? (Cat laughs)
CP: There was a time where I was like, “Saraya, these are trash. How could we have produced such a thing?” But I think time away from it and listening to them more, they really are very good. We shared so much information and I think they were just a little bit, like–we're fast talking, we're doing things, we're, boom, you know?
But like, you know, there are some things I would tweak in that sense, but like, the content covered I still think was really, really, really good.
SB: Yeah.
CP: So I would like to offer that. I know that's not really what we were going–it's not specific to this episode, but I did wanna share that with you.
SB: Very gratifying to hear!
CP: Yeah! (Laughs) Um, and also, there is a time–and I guess I referenced already–but I have a quote here. I didn't realize I wrote the quote in the notes. I had said, “I wanna get as many people on this rad fat liberation train as possible, even if it means we get 'em with a body positivity and have 'em stick around for the fat liberation.”
And I wish, I wish my dorky ass would've done like a, “Toot toot!” Or like a “choo choo!”
SB: Aw, no. I'm glad you didn't–
CP: –’Cause of the train! Because, we'll get to this in some other episodes, I had some kind of fun sound effects that I think Saraya would have liked to amend.
SB: Heavy quotes around “fun sounds effects,” folks. (Cat laughs)
CP: Okay, so that is something too. Do you have any, do you like–is there anything else that you can remember from, from the body positivity minisode that you would like to share?
SB: Mm, no, I think you did a good job of focusing on–it's just more, right, like everything we said was just a titch of everything else we could have talked about.
CP: Like, as an example, I think we like mentioned body neutrality, like in literally one sentence and it's just like, okay, cool. You know, it would've been so nice to offer more. But it, there's like–you know, I think this is probably what, is it bold to call this like, aligned with journalism? But like, you know, when you're doing journalism or like telling stories or whatever, it's like you have to cut it somewhere, you know. Like you have to focus in on your theme because like, if not, then you dilute all of it and it's just like, what are you even saying?
So I'm again, proud of what we did; and also, yeah, agree more would've been really fun to explore.
SB: I guess this isn't specific to this minisode, but if you do give it a listen again or if this is just helpful for framing it, it wasn't just us dumping information through the airwaves to you. We did have a structure to it, and I did like that we gave some suggestions at the end, or like ideas of how to like, walk away from–’cuz we did get a little mean. We got a little bit like, “Oh this is awful, this isn't a good time, this is not actually what will help change the future in a positive way.” But we did give some suggestions and we kind of did that through all of them. Because all of these topics are hard and can be despair-laden, but what we've really invited people to do is like, radicalize instead of falling through despair.
CP: I'm so glad you mentioned that, ‘cuz we did kind of keep like, that sort of framework throughout all of these. And I think that sometimes that's what's missing from some of these more like investigative reporting, or like–
SB: –Are we journalists now? Do we get, do we get to put that on my LinkedIn?
CP: I, I wish. I don't know. You can put whatever you want.
SB: Will you endorse me?
CP: Sure.
SB: No no no; will you, the listener, endorse me? (Cat laughs) I’m terrible at Facebook, I'm not better at LinkedIn, but find me there and endorse me for journalism, please.
CP: Okay. You don't do anything on LinkedIn, do you? Or do you, is that like your secret, like, place you thrive on social?
SB: Oh my gosh. What if that's for my secret? I don't know. I go on LinkedIn every quarter.
CP: Cool. It's on my list to get better at. I don't know.
SB: I did–this is so, such a non-sequitur, but I did have a conversation with a friend over LinkedIn chat exclusively through the predictive text that it brings up. It was Martha. Hey, shout out to Martha. But like, we just went back and forth for like, two hours one day.
CP: That's so silly.
SB: And let me tell you, so this is all predictive based on like, what other people's messages are through LinkedIn. It gets a little saucy!
CP: Oh!
SB: It was weird. The emoji choices that kept popping up and like some of the stuff I'm like, “What are, what are people saying in the LinkedIn chats? What are these DMs really for?” So–
CP: But that–wow. I, I have so many questions.
SB: Like many of our minisodes: so many more questions. (Both laugh)
CP: Just gonna say yes, exactly. And we, in the interest of time and dedication to the topic, probably will not continue down that rabbit hole.
SB: Well, you already kind of led us into it ‘cuz we talked about body positivity, and how like fat liberation is so much better. So let's just talk about that one next.
CP: Yeah, cuz that was our next one. And as a quick little like definition recap, fat liberation is a movement that pushes back against fat phobia, fat bias and size based discrimination in public and private domains and demands equality and inclusion for people living in larger bodies. And I would say this is one of our meatier minisodes in terms of like, history that we shared. I mean, we really went through like, history of the movement; and then we talked about a reality check of where we are today. And then, you know, in this framework that you mentioned earlier, Saraya, we talked about like what it means to us and like what to do, you know, like where do we go from here?
I like how we talked through lots of history. So like, you'll–Saraya, you'll remember this ‘cuz you, I think were of the two of us responsible for like this section. We talked about like the 1967 Fat-In protest. We talked about NAAFA, the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance. We talked in like, at length about the Fat Underground and Judy Free Spirit and Sara Fishman AKA Aldebaran AKA Vivian F. Mayer. Um, we talked about Lou Louderback's article “More People Should Be Fat” in the Saturday Evening Post.
And then we kind of, you know, was like, whoop, one in the nineties; and then there's bloggers and activists and academics who are engaging in fat studies; and in 2009, the Fat Studies Reader edited by Sondra Solovay and Esther Rothblum came out. So I think it was cool to dive into that.
I would also say that like, I'm sure we left stuff out and we said that we're like–this is a very U.S.-centric look at this. We're of course leaving things out. I'm just probably convinced we left a lot of things out because history prioritizes like white people doing stuff. And while that's not everyone, you know, that we looked into, it just feels like there's just a lot that was missing. But also like, I don't have an idea of how we would've done it; like, how to include everything. So it again is like, in the spirit of much more to be unpacked here, you know?
SB: Mm-hmm. I guess one bias that we have is that we kind of ended that timeline at like our consciousness around this history. Like we could go back to Tumblr; like we talk about it so much in other episodes and interviews about Tumblr and people who were really on the scene in like 20, 2012, 2013, and on and on and on.
And so I think that's kind of maybe where we left off that could have been helpful to dive into more, but because we feel like we've talked about before, or it's so much a part of our stories as a Matter of Fat, that we didn't really dive into it further.
CP: That's a really good point. Yeah. I really–yeah, that's a really good point.
We spent a lot of time talking about the Fat Liberation Manifesto. I fucking love the Fat Liberation Manifesto!
SB: I was gonna say, we did that because you love it. I mean, I don't dislike it. I think it was really helpful to look back at that and see just how accurate it is ‘til today. Oh yeah, but like, you really love it. So we spent a lot of time on it, which was good.
CP: We did, I mean, short of me just like, reading it all in full. We didn't do that–
SB: –But we got pretty dang close.
CP: Like lots of parts, lots of parts. And then we talked, you know; like, like, okay, here, this was the language used and like how this is just as accurate today as it was then.
SB: Say, say a part.
CP: Well, I guess we could, the–my favorite is at the end of the Fat Liberation Manifesto where they say:
“We refuse to be subjugated by the interests of our enemies. We fully intend to reclaim power over our bodies and our lives. We commit ourselves to pursue these goals together.”
And it's just so nice. If I was a cult leader, this would be, this would be the 10 Commandments. This would be, I don't know, Saraya. I could just go on and on. I don't know if I geeked out this much. No, we didn't, ‘cuz it was scripted, so I wasn't able to gush this much. But man, I love that Liberation Manifesto. Um, that was really cool to do.
SB: There's such power in those words. And also, yeah, I'm dying. If you were a cult leader–I love that you're considering this. And also, maybe you’re already on the track.
CP: I wonder if this is a cult. Oh my God. Uh oh. Um, we, I, you know this, Saraya–I listened to a podcast maybe like last year about cult leaders and I had this idea of like, “Oh no, this, I would be very good at this.” I don't think I'd use my powers and those ways, but–
SB: But why is it that I've been asking all, did I not tell you about this? In all these professional environments, oh my God. I've been asking people like, “What cult would you join? Like if you joined a cult. What cult would it be?” Like, so I've been asking people that, so I don't know if I told you that or not.
CP: I think–okay. Remember when you and me and Lindsay had pizza that one time? You were talking about this and I actually think I will not say my response on the podcast, ‘cuz I feel like my FBI agent would not be into that being shared publicly.
SB: Oh, and you know what? I can't wait for this episode to be played on in a Netflix documentary. (Cat laughs) Finally, the exposure we demand and deserve! Just kidding.
CP: Oh my God. Speaking of Netflix, something I love about this episode–and honestly, I think almost every, her work comes into all of these minisodes–we are such Evette Dionne fan girls. I mean, forever and ever. The things that Evette Dionne has written about fat liberation, and topics like related to it, it is just all so good, and we referenced so many of her pieces throughout these minisodes. So I just like had to, had to shout Evette Dionne out.
SB: And if you don't understand how that connects with Netflix, Netflix had hired a bunch of amazing Back women writers and then laid them all off, and Evette was one of them. So, much as we hearken back to the first season with Cat’s saying, “Netflix, do better–”
CP: –Netflix, do better!--
SB: –Netflix, stop it. Just like stop. Cut it out. So we love Evette Dionne. Coolin’ on Netflix, gotta say.
CP: Something I think would be also helpful to mention, like, all of the stuff we referenced that found its way into the minisodes we have in our show notes.
I don't know if they made it into the show notes that like you might see on Apple Podcast or Spotify, but if you go to our website, it's truly like–there's just like a, for more information kind of reader that we've put together for everyone. Everything that we reference in a minisode we have hyperlinked on our website. So like, you can go and read all the stuff that we read and referenced in these minisodes.
And I, I'm really happy we did that. ‘Cause truly, we read a lot for these.
SB: Bibliographies, baby.
CP: The final thing I will say is that I feel, when I was listening–so like in the, the cadence of–I dunno if cadence is the right word–the way we set up all of these, at the end of the fat liberation episode, we talked ‘about like what fat liberation means to us. And when I was listening to myself talk, I was just like, “Cat, this is how, how many times did you edit and rewrite this?” You know, like I was just struck by, like it was all true and real information, but I feel like it came across as like, not, because it, it was just so like, I don't know. I was too in my head with it. Do you know what I'm saying?
SB: Mmhmm.
CP: I wish it was more freewheeling.
SB: Freewheeling conversation. I think it's just a testament to like, how much we've allowed ourselves to grow in comfort with the conversation and recording it and putting it out in the world too.
CP: I agree. You know what else I wonder though? Like, here I am, my, this is the fourth time I've mentioned it. You know how I enjoy that now our episodes are more chatty and conversational. But I wonder, you know, there might be folks listening right now who are like, “Oh, I miss how much more concise things were; how much more clever your jokes were.”
SB: Oh, that's–let's never say that any jokes have been clever. (Laughs)
CP: Well, you know, you know, it's very possible that like, just ‘cuz that's what I'm attracted to right now, and for our podcast and kind of podcast in general, that doesn't mean that's like what other folks feel too. So I guess I just wanna like, you know, name that like, it's–I'm inter–I think that like all kinds of people like all kinds of different things. And so, um, yeah. I'm sure there are some folks maybe who would prefer the way we, we came at these episodes than the way we do now.
SB: Yeah, well true that, and also I think there's a level of confidence that comes with our conversations now that maybe I–well, I'll just speak for myself, didn't have early on. Not necessarily with these minisodes; a little bit, ‘cuz this was a new way of capturing our conversation. But I don't know, dude; if we didn't have it scripted out before, I felt like I was gonna misspeak, I was gonna harm people, I was gonna say something wrong and apparently not worried about that anymore.
I should be; it's not that I'm not worried about that, but I feel like we've done it enough that I feel comfortable enough with you and our listeners that I think that confidence comes through in the conversation even if it isn't as polished as it once was.
CP: Yeah, I, I think that's a good point. And also, Saraya, where my mind goes–and you may edit this out if you want to–I just feel like season five, this is what happens when both the co-hosts are on anti-anxiety meds. Like stuff just (Saraya laughs) we just give less fucks. We're just a little more chill. And you get what you get.
SB: I like how you're getting into the anti-anxiety meds, but also like, a whole-ass pandemic happens. And like, so many other things we are just, I know, prioritize; helps you prioritize what you worry about and what you don't.
CP: Yeah. Well, we–you said something before that, I've even forgot what it was now, but it reminded me of something that I think we might get into with our next minisode.
SB: –What a teaser. Okay. What an interesting segue. (Laughs)
CP: I know, what a segue, A non-segway segue. I have no information, but there was something you said that I thought I might say, but I forgot it, so. Saraya, you go.
SB: Let’s get into the next one. Okay, so, next episode that we're gonna chat about is the fatphobia minisode.
Um, I, so we covered like so many, so many definitions in this one. Like we've been giving definitions before, but I made a joke in this episode about how it's like my sixth grade history paper. So you're gonna start it off the top with like definitions. And it just, it really felt like that. The way we were reading through it. It was–oh boy. It was, it was a dense listen, it was real packed. No thesaurus words–
CP: It packed a punch! Pow pow!
SB: Stop it. Stop it! (Laughs) Yeah. So that's a nice revival from one of the minisodes kinda.
CP: Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
SB: When we were talking about sound effects earlier, that's what you just heard. Cat, please, please do it again for the audience.
CP: No, no, no. It's, it's been done. You–it's been done.
SB: I talked over it though!
CP: Oh, no. I said that it packed a punch and then I said, “Pow pow!” Like it was a one-two punch, you know?
SB: Yeah. Thank you.
CP: Pow-pow!
SB: Good sound. Good storytelling. I love it.
CP: Thank you.
SB: Wow. Okay, no, but it's better than my definition usage, but it's still helpful because we covered so, so much.
CP: We gotta share–like, I think in terms of these minisodes, I think it was essential for us to share definitions, although it's like a little dry. It's like, we gotta get, we gotta let people know how we're coming at these topics, and I think one of the ways to do that is to just like, be clear about like, “Here's how we define this thing,” you know?
SB: Mhmm, yeah. Especially when things change too. So why don't I start with a, a little recap on the–a little glossary moment here with you all.
CP: Do it. Do it.
SB: So we, we considered that fatphobia is the fear and dislike of fat people and the stigmatization of individuals with bigger bodies. We did do a little bit of, I don't know, like, untangling of that and like, other words that are associated with it. We talked about weight stigma and how sometimes that and fatphobia can be used interchangeably; but like, we also wanna talk about sizeism.
So sizeism is more of like, it's–well, I'll just give you the definition. It's defined as prejudice or discrimination on the grounds of a person's size. So we think about sizeism as the umbrella under which fatphobia and weight stigma–which like, refers to negative attitudes and behavior made towards fat people–those live under that concept of sizeism. We also–
CP: –Sizeism can be more than just like our body size; like our weight basically, right?
SB: Yeah. So it could be height, stature, muscle mass, skeletal size, just to name a few things. And so like, fatphobia and weight stigma are forms of sizeism. But to your point, Cat, sizeism extends beyond fatness.
So like, think about that. I think we covered that in a minute. (Both laugh) Like, we just ran through those definitions, but it was really helpful. Especially–so this is something that like, I would actually amend now, is that when we, when we did this, we titled it “Fatphobia” ‘cuz it's the most common usage of that consideration of like fear and dislike of fatphobia.
But since then–and after reading, you know, Aubrey Gordon's work and just thinking about it more–I don't really use fatphobia any longer. I use anti-fat bias, because it isn't like a psychological condition. It is a systematic and like individual choice, and so kind of removing it from that, I don't know, like, medicalized term to some extent when you think of a phobia. I think it makes more sense for me and, um, I don't know. I, How do you conceptualize it now, Cat?
CP: I–okay, I like what you just shared. I find that I use both terms, but I think–and, and I think part of it is because fatphobia is so generally used, you know; like it's still very much used and understood. But I think one of the reasons why–multiple reasons why saying antifat bias instead makes a lot more sense–but one of the reasons why I like it is that I feel like it's more like in your face, you know?
SB: Mm-hmm.
CP: And it's like, by that, I guess I mean to say like, I think it probably is easier for people to think like, “Oh, maybe I do have some bias,” versus like, “Oh, maybe I do have a phobia.” You know?
Like, I think it makes it more just like, “Oh, I'm–” I don't know, I don't feel like I'm explaining this very well, but I feel like it might be easier for someone to not only understand what antifat bias is getting at, but also perhaps reflect on the, like, how that might be inside of them. I just think that people, like to think like, “Oh, I have a bias” is, feels a little less scary than trying to say like, “Oh, I have a documented phobia,” which again, doesn't really make sense in that, in that way either.
So yeah, I think that were we to do this again, I would definitely be down for amending the title and focusing more on antifat bias than fatphobia and our language usage and discussion.
SB: Yeah, giving a solid definition of it, as opposed to me just trying to muddle my way through why, like, get better then.
CP: No, I think it's good. And actually, you know–I think in these show notes maybe–we link a piece that I think Audrey Gordon talked about in her book, but there's a piece that I read recently and I was like, “Oh yeah, this like really puts this into perspective.” And just, I was reading the piece and I was like, “This just aligns with things Saraya has been telling me for a long while here.” So maybe I'll try to find that and link that in the show notes so someone else can read more information about that. ‘Cuz again, we don't have time to go all the way into it here.
SB: No, but we wanna touch on the things that we would like to, if we had time to, redo them; thought that that would be useful for everybody else.
But, okay. Let's talk more about what we did like. I don't know why it was so charming to me. In our minisodes, we refer to some of them as “A little treat for your ears,” which I just find very endearing.
CP: It was, I just think like–I don't know if it was me or you who said it, but the way we popped out with it was just kind of silly, and that struck me too when I was re-listening to these.
SB: And I just, yeah. We, even though it was chock-full of glossary terms and read like a bad sixth grade report–no, a good one. A good sixth grade report–it's just, we did still have a little fun with it, so I appreciated that.
I love that we still focused on the fact that this most negatively impacts fat folks and the most fat folks, but also calling into the fact that like, if you're considering fatphobia, it does impact thin people too. To the point where like, everyone has weight fluctuations; everybody has been, you know, impacted by fatphobia or antifat bias in some way, shape or form; and I think that was really helpful.
We did that with diet culture too, where we talked about like, just ‘cuz you're not on a diet doesn't mean you're not impacted by this immersive experience in our culture. So I thought that was a good way to provide context that's like–okay, if you're listening to this and you're not a fat person, you're not immune from this and you're a participant in it too.
CP: I actually think that this one was maybe my favorite out of all of them. I guess I wouldn't have said that until we just did this most re–or I, I did a recent re-listen of all of these in preparation for this. I'm sure you did too.
SB: Mm-hmm.
CP: I think this is my favorite, and perhaps it was because there were little things we said that I kind of forgot about, and that is one of them. Like, we really made sure to say, even if you are not fat or haven't been fat, fatphobia negatively impacts you as well.
You know, because the–you know, it's like the water we're swimming in. It's like, you know, how our culture is set up. So like, even if you're not fat, this like, you know, the fear that some folks have of being fat, like, that got in your head. Because the culture we have is rooted in antifat bias, you know?
SB: Exactly.
CP: Um, and so I was so glad that we mentioned that. I'm glad you brought that up here too.
SB: Yeah. I guess another thing that I'm really proud of is, again, like, this conversation has continued to grow. And so some things, like Sabrina Strings work from the book Fearing the Black Body, I think are really well-known now, at least by people who care to talk about this and understand body liberation and things like that. But at the time, that was a newer, a newer text; and I'm really glad that we got to bring it in and just talk about how like, eugenics and Protestantism and all of these other cultural aspects really feed into fatphobia or antifat bias. So I'm really proud that we did our good research with that, and like, affirming her research and, yeah.
I just, I'm excited that we took something that was of the moment and to, I don't know, grow and be true today. I'm just saying the same thing over and over again now.
CP: Yeah. I was, it was great to be able to use so much of Sabrina String's work, and I agree that, you know, her book had been out–Fearing The Black Body had been out like, maybe a year or two at that point. But it didn't feel like she was being interviewed as much and talked about as much, you know. I just like didn't–and, and now it feels like we hear so much about–and it's not like we are the first ones, to be like, “Oh, Sabrina Strings work.” Not at all. No, no, no. Um, but it was like, it’s just, it's a really–oh God, her work is just so cool.
Like she–there just–and, and how could we do this topic justice without bringing that in? So I agree that, I'm proud that we were able to really go there in some–I mean, connecting this shit to like eugenics, it's a big fucking deal. And like, transatlantic slave trade. Like it's a big, like, “Oh, you know, just some light reading for the–”
SB: –Literally what we said, we're like, “Oh, what's crap into some history eugenics and the transatlantic slave trade. Here's your minisode.” Oh yeah, yeah. That's some banter there, I suppose.
CP: Oh my gosh. (Laughs)
SB: Um, and also like, looking at the historical aspects, but the current aspects of it all. So we talked about how it was federally legal to discriminate on the basis of body size. We talked about like, human dignity, as far as not being able to get accessible clothing so you can clothe yourself. We talked about medicalized antifat bias, healthism discrimination, mass disconcern–like there's just a big gamut of what antifat bias looks like, and we tried to do a good job of touching on so many different areas, and each of those could have been their own podcast or podcast series.
CP: I think it was great to include so many examples, because I wonder if some people who have not experienced that have been close to these topics before, even like, would think of those things, you know?
SB: Mm-hmm. I wonder–
CP: What, what else? Are there things that you would amend or change? Or are there more loves?
SB: There's one more love that I wanna talk about. So we gave examples of what that looks like in our life, as far as like, the impact of antifat bias. And I thought you did a good job of providing, we talk about theoretical impacts of antifat bias, and then really just honing in, which is something we tried to do with our interview episodes.
But your example was really, I don't know. We were talking about Fattitude the movie, and how you were really struck by all of the messaging. So they just did this, this reel of one image after the other of like kids' cartoons and movies that are really harmful in portraying fat people in a really negative way, and you were just talking about, you know, that's just something that I, like a sponge, soaked up; internalized; and have been carrying with me ever since I was a small child. And like, think about how toxic and harmful that is.
CP: And just, to think that that's still like, no, you know, in all the work I'm doing, I'm not, I'm still not immune to those things, you know? I don't know. It's just, yeah. I think if I let myself go there, I recognize just how deep these things are embedded in each of us and are just like, just part of the fabric of just so much of what we've experienced in our lives.
Whoa. I mean, like, there's just, it's a lot. It's kind of heavy. And also, yeah, that's I guess how I feel, so I'm glad that that, that that example hit.
SB: Yeah. It was good, you did a good job. You know what you didn't do a good job with?
CP: What?
SB: Pow pow!
CP: Pow pow!
SB: No. I–(Laughs)
CP: That's why I mentioned it, I saw it on your list of things you'd like to amend, and that's why I did it at the top.
SB: Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for getting it out the way.
CP: Why, why did you hate it so much?
SB: I don't know.
CP: Cheesy.
SB: Yeah. I like a good amount of cheese, but now we got a lot of soundbites for that forever in perpetuity, so that's good.
CP: Okay, yeah. (Both laugh)
SB: No, I mean, other than that, I think we've kind of talked about the energy. It was just like, very steady and very professional, which is like–not that we're unprofessional, but I'm glad we've changed. I'm glad we've shifted a little bit with that. And then, the other major thing that I think would be really important for us to amend is, is that we really emphasize Lindo Bacon and their work with Health at Every Size
CP: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
And so Health at Every Size is one framework I don't even really rely on as much anymore. Like when I first learned about it, I was like, “Oh yeah, this makes a lot of sense. This is really great.” But it's just like, one of many different things that are out there, and I think that's not even the reason why I would amend it in this episode.
It's moreso that there was a significant, in my opinion, controversy with Lindo's work and centering of themselves and their privilege tied to HAES–or Health at Every Size–above others; like primarily black, indigenous, Latinx, and lower-socioeconomic people who are negatively impacted by antifat bias.
So I, I think just based on that controversy and like the concept of HAES and who it does and doesn't belong to, and who it helps and doesn't help primarily, I think it would be better to do a deep dive on–and I guess I suggest you also, listener, if you haven't already–I would encourage you to read ASDAH’s “Holding Linda Bacon Accountable for Repeated Harm in the Fat Liberation and HAES Communities.” So we'll definitely link out to that, but it does a very nice job of breaking down exactly why what happened was controversial, and just how they centered themselves and didn't really pass on that authorship of the HAES books to other people and continuing the conversation of fat liberation. So yeah, that's what I would do differently.
CP: I agree, and I have honestly like this, when–this all went down when we weren't in season; and I think if it had happened, it would've been like, oh yeah, we would've been talking about it quite a bit. And I realize we haven't really talked about it in the pod yet. I don't know, maybe it'll find its way into a Dirt and Discourse, maybe it won’t. But what's curious is that like, ASDAH holds the trademark for HAES, and Lindo Bacon doesn't. So I guess there's still a lot there I don't understand.
But I do think that ASDAH is doing really important work just generally around fat liberation. And so yeah, I just think–yeah, the work that they've done to hold Lindo accountable is helpful and worth a read if you haven't checked that out already.
SB: Yeah, for sure. For sure. But yeah, I don't think there's anything else that I would amend, actually. But I do wanna like, reiterate something that I think you wanna reiterate.
CP: Something that you love, that I love?! Mhmm!
SB: Yeah, mutual love club over here. So, I think it'd be nice to end like this segment of talking about this episode, this minisode, in the same way that we ended the original minisode.
CP: Do it, do it, do it.
SB: Okay. So it's a quote from, as Cat mentioned before, one of our favorites who's a black feminist culture editor; writer; and scholar. Of course, we're talking about Evette Dionne. The quote is:
“There is nothing wrong with wanting to be affirmed by people who understand how crucial it is to love your body as it is. In fact, there's an entire history of people who have done exactly that and fought for the dignity of fat people. You can learn that history and then carry on that legacy.
In fact, the movement has been waiting for you all along.”
CP: Oh my God. It is just, you just get so caught up with it. It's so beautiful. Oh my God. I just, I love that. We should end every episode of everything with that. It's just so great. So, so good.
CP: It's just such a call into like, don't fall into despair, because this has been railed against for so long. Like, fall into community; fall into love; fall into communication with others who share the same beliefs and like, same interests. It's beautiful.
CP: It's really beautiful. Gosh, Evette Dionne is just such a gift, a gift to all of us.
SB: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay, you know what isn't a gift? Diet culture.
CP: Sure ain’t! (Both laugh)
SB: There's a segue for you. Okay. So that was another minisode. Obviously we–I kind of teased a little bit about it earlier, other than us out like, outrightly saying that's what we were gonna cover. Um, but yeah. So our next minisode was diet culture. Hit 'em with the definitions. We gotta give 'em definitions. And by we I mean like all of us; you, me, everybody.
So, diet culture. So diet and weight loss culture–often just shortened to diet culture–is a system of beliefs that glorifies thinness, equates health to moral virtue, and promotes weight loss at any cost. So we talked a little bit about that. We also–my favorite part was going through the history of dieting and just like, how dieting has popped up over and over and over again.
CP: We went there, and you researched so much for that and you came with all the wild facts. Saraya. That was such a fun and like, silly but also like helpful context for that minisode.
SB: Yeah. And also like, there's so much more, and like a lot of other people have done that research too, but wow. Humans just love to stay dieting and love to like, bring back the same nonsense over and over again and like, never learn from our choices.
CP: Are you gonna talk about Hot Boy Summer with our like potato and vinegar eating? Lord Byron, was it?
SB: You stole my–oh my God, you stole it. I was gonna give you, I was gonna ask you if you remembered about a hot vinegar boy summer.
CP: That's what I, I mean, how could I forget? That's like the main thing I remember from that entire, like, of all of the diets; people; and things that you shared, that's the one that I won't never forget.
SB: Okay, so just, so what are we even talking about? Does anybody know if you listen to it? Maybe?
Okay. So one of the things I talked about was Lord Byron, and how he was just like, the “It” boy of the time. He would for sure be an influencer these days. But like, his whole thing was being very pale and very thin, and that was just like–romanticism. People loved that.
And his whole thing was that he would like, eat and drink vinegar, or like vinegar-soaked potatoes, just to keep his very, very slim visage. And, you know, gross. But I do wanna do a little BTS. So I originally wrote that Hot Vinegar Boy Summer line, but Cat delivered it really really well. So–
CP: –I didn't realize I was the one who delivered it, ‘cuz that was all you.
SB: I know you delivered it, and you did a great job with it. (Cat laughs) Yeah, I think it played really well. I think that's one of the great examples of where we'll like, we'll both write a joke, or like we'll write a joke, but then the other person, it's suited to like what they're saying at the time, and so it just rolls with it. But I am proud of that one.
CP: We did, I mean, we–I don't think we're like, comic geniuses here, but I do think that we did, throughout the years of scripting these things, we have had some fun little LOLs.
SB: Honestly, I get my dad more and more every year, ‘cuz he'll say stuff and I’m like “That’s not really that funny.” He's like “Yeah, but I like to make myself laugh.”
CP: That’s us. You and me, just laughing at ourselves.
SB: And if you're laughing too, dear listener, thank you. Bless you. Oh man.
Okay, so yes, we did that. We talked about–Cat made me not do all of my research, not share out my research, ‘cuz it was a minisode and we needed to cut it down.
CP: We had to. It's so much research, so we just like, zoomed through time and space.
SB: Time and space. But I will–I brought some fun facts back that didn't make it into the episode.
CP: You did not. Oh my gosh.
SB: Yeah. If we wanna do that, I don't know if we wanna do that.
Uh, we, before we get into it though, maybe I'll save it and we'll see if we wanna do this a little bit later. But I will say: so we did examples of history. What else did we talk about? We talked about like, what you can do instead of being consumed with dieting and reducing beliefs. So we, we made it actionable.
And then like, I don't know, I just– at the end of it, I shared an example that I thought was profound, mostly ‘cuz it's my example, but about how once you recognize weight loss culture, once you recognize how just like we are immersed in it, you can't unsee it. And so my example was about: you know, as a young kid, I didn't know how to read, and then all of a sudden when I learned how to read, I'd look up and see all these billboards around me and be like, “Oh, people have been communicating the whole time.” It's been here all the time and I just didn't even realize it.
And now I know what to look for and now I can't unsee it. So I think that's what it was for us with this minisode was like, how can we just like, really put some concrete examples together of what diet culture looks like, and like how everybody can start to recognize it and decide what they wanna do for themselves in regards to it?
CP: Yeah, yeah. Because it is just like all around us. It's sometimes hard to notice it. And I think, you know, we did; we just, we don't need to do it now, I guess. Go listen to the minisode y'all. But just like a lot of, I think, wasn't there some research from Ragen Chastain that we really utilize, or some words from her that we really, really utilize? Like, diet culture does this and this and this, and it just felt like good examples.
SB: We can go into it!
CP: I don't think we need to. But I, I like that. And I think that like, that would be good. If what we're saying, dear listener, sounds interesting to you, head over to that minisodes.
Oh and, Saraya, we should mention that this minisode, we–so like, the first three we recorded as the very first part of season three, but by the diet culture minisode, which came out much later in the season along with some other minisodes, but the other minisodes weren't as like, fat lib 101 kind of deals like these were, by the time we got to this minisode, we were a little chattier.
SB: Way chattier, which I enjoy.
CP: You noticed that too, right?
SB: Yeah, yeah. Well I put it in that bullet point, baby.
CP: I didn't even see! You’ve got so many bullet points here, babe! (Both laugh) Oh, ok, you did say that. Sorry. Stealing your points.
SB: No, no, no, no. It's good, ‘cuz we have the same things. Yeah, we were definitely more comfortable. I also do appreciate that even though we were more comfortable, that didn't mean that we didn't pull in the research and like, voice of other people who have said all these
profound things too.
So like, we talked about Christy Harrison in that episode and how she said that “Western culture is by and large diet culture.”
CP: That's powerful. Yeah.
SB: True. Accurate. You've said like, the Ragan Chastain, ‘cuz Ragan did a great job of laying out like, what is diet culture? What does it look like? How does it harm us? And so yes, go back and listen to that episode or look up her information.
And then there was another one that we used from Marilyn Wan, and the quote is: “The only thing anyone can diagnose by looking at a fat person is their own level of prejudice toward fat people.”
CP: Exactly.
SB: Exactly. You don't need to know anything else. I mean, you do, but like, that's a pretty solid one.I'm trying to think, what else did you enjoy about that episode?
CP: Hmm, I don't know. I love the stuff that you loved.
SB: Okay, but I, I loved Vivi. We heard Vivi in the background.
CP: Aw. Yeah, we did.
SB: Sweet angel, baby Vivi, your cat.
CP: RIP sweet Vivi. Ever since–she would just get so loud when we were recording sometimes. She's like, really freaking loud. And now you experience that with Bogart a little bit where he just like, sometimes he's like, gets in and then he is just like, noisy for a little while.
And the same with Vivi. She would just like–well, and also I record in my closet very often, so she'd come by the door and just be like, “It's bedtime. What the fuck you doing?
SB: “What are you doing in that closet? Ma'am?”
CP: She’s so loud. Yeah.
SB: But like, I so loved hearing her, ‘cuz it was just like a little memory of her and our time, our time together with sweet Vivi. So that's something I wouldn't change in that episode.
CP: That's sweet.
SB: Things I would change: I would change. Well, well maybe it's more–you said “Au contraire” at one point–
CP: – “Au contraire–”
SB: –And I was like, wow.
CP: And you said “Bold. Bold to introduce that at the end of the season here.” Like I can't just say it once and be okay with it? Oh, wow.
SB: Your catchphrases are, are pro, are necessary in every, almost every episode. Well, so like an example, this isn't a catchphrase, but you did bring up Noom through many episodes, including this one.
CP: I fucking hate Noom.
SB: I know. (Laughs) Yeah. So that, that was consistent, at least in this. I guess something else we could have gone further in, like at one point I talked about how there's like all of these moral aspects of dieting, the religious context of that.
CP: Yeah, I remember. And I remember us saying explicitly, “that's a whole ‘nother podcast.”
SB: Yeah. So I think that would've been interesting to go into more of. Did you wanna hear any more of those examples of dieting?
CP: Okay. I think you need to give us one. You, this is a–I'm just scrolling through, we don't have time for all this, but I think it would be fun for one can. Is that, is that an appropriate–
SB: I'm gonna do more than one. I know you said one, but I can't. I can't not. Oh, there's like so many. So I wanna do a few–
CP: –Make it quick.
SB: Oh, come now. (Cat laughs)
Alright, so this is a quote. So the year was 1903, right around the time big insurance companies began rating policy holders based on their weights. Horace Fletcher, an art dealer in San Francisco, was too fat to qualify for insurance, so he invented his own weight loss plan.
He lost 40 pounds by chewing every mouthful 32 times, or once for each tooth, and then spitting out the rest. Later, he refined the Fletcher Method to chewing until the food is completely liquid or at least a hundred times. He took pride in the fact that he only pooped twice a month, and his was no more offensive than wet clay and had no more odor than a hot biscuit.
CP: What? Okay. There's just like, so much there and I don't know if I wanna go into any of it. Oh my God. Pooping twice a month and being proud of it? Excuse me? Fiber, what is happening? Oh my gosh.
SB: The thing that gets me about this, and this is indicative of all the things we talked about, is that it's still like, advice that pops up now. So like, I swear on Instagram reels the other day I saw a woman talking about how she chews her food 45 times every time she takes a bite.
I mean, Horace would be proud! I don't, I don't doubt that like, chewing my food more is not a bad idea for like, digestion and things, stuff like that. But like, whew, not a hundred times. Not liquefying it. That’s not, that’s not it.
CP: You know what this kind of reminds me of? It's not the same, but it feels reminiscent of this–it's, I think it's like this like, Kourtney Kardashian quote that gets spread around, or the like audio where she's like, “I don't wanna eat it, but I'm just gonna, don't you just love to smell it?” Or something like that.
SB: Yes, “imagine.”
CP: Yes! Yes. Ugh, gross.
SB: Mhmm, yeah. It’s gnarly, it’s gnarly.
Um, what's another fun one?
CP: Okay. Oh, go ahead.
SB: You go for it.
CP: That one you have highlighted in here I thought was one of the most compelling things that you shared in that episode.
SB: Yeah. So maybe even though, uh, we talked about it, it's worth it just to emphasize it again.
I–you know what, Cat? I will give in. I will only share that Horace Fletcher bit and then I will reshare this one for you. So I compromise.
CP: Thanks Saraya! Compromise is how we've made it all the way through.
SB: (Laughs) Just constant compromise.
Um, okay. So the quote that I'm going to reiterate from the minisode is that a British study completed in 1950 had two groups of people overeat for a week. Thin people's metabolism raised when they overate to burn off the excess calories. Overweight peoples did not rise, leading the researchers to conclude that “diet advice is heartless and out of date,” in 1950.
CP: Yeah. Well, mhmm, okay.
SB: Wait, wait, I lied. I'm not compromising.
CP: You're so excited. What is it? What is it you gotta do?
SB: I wanna just, it's just a quick mention, but like, amphetamines became super popular in the ‘60’s.
CP: Uh huh.
SB: So like, let's think about how that actually like, kicked off a whole new era of dieting and like, medicalized dieting and things like that. And I think that is important because–I'm not gonna give you any more fun facts–but at the end of the minisode, I talked about how like, the future of diet is probably in three–the future of dieting, I should say–is probably in three trends.
So: nutrigenomics, how food impacts like us on a molecular level or genomic level; prescription drugs; and more governmental intervention in the food supply. So like, that was kind of where we left it off, and yeah, it's truly going that way. You think about, I think about Instagram, I think about social media and all the things that are offered to me, and they all do fall into those areas, except maybe not governmental intervention in the food supply.
I would also say there are more, like, wellness initiatives and diet instead of dieting and reducing. So like for example, Noom and it's rebrand from weight loss to–now it's goal setting and wellness.
CP: But it's still weight loss once you pay to get into the thing.
SB: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Or like, there are 14+ FDA-approved weight loss drugs that exist currently. So that does align with that prescription drug outcome. But like, the side effects of those are really, really bad. And I would also say that the governmental intervention in the food supply I don't think aligns with it, because at least our government doesn't really care about safety for women, children or the environment. So I don't even think that governmental intervention in the food supply is particularly likely at this point.
CP: I don't think this is that, but it feels a, like, aligned with that sentiment. Like what, you know, there are some states in which soda is taxed, so like you pay an extra tax if you're getting soda versus if you get like a water or a juice or something. Do you think that aligns with that? I guess it's not intervention in food itself, but like government, like, influence on like, purchasing habits, you know what I'm saying?
SB: Yeah, I do. And also just the way that people engage with the government these days. I don't think that the government has that much more control over it.
CP: No. And like, it's so funny, like if that's what they're doing, like that's not gonna help anybody, you know? It's like, the choices the government makes, it's just like, why is that what you're spending time and resources on? Like, there are so many things you could do that would actually be good for our population, but like, who's doing that stuff? Not them.
SB: Oh my gosh. And yeah, and I think we've talked about that in a couple of these minisodes. It's just like the indicators of health is not just food, right?
So like, if we're gonna talk about governmental intervention, it's not the food supply. It should actually be in like, other basic needs that people have or the way that funding goes towards getting people, you know, out of food deserts. Or there's health and safety in other ways.
CP: Yeah. Better neighborhoods, yeah. Well, it's just like, I mean–our country's so good at just making it sort of an untenable scenario and then convincing us that like, we are responsible for our own issues and problems. And that's like, I don't know. If that's not the most American thing, I don't know what is.
SB: Individual failings. It's on you. Your fault. Do better. (Laughs)
CP: Do better. Not–well, do better America, but not in the way they're telling us to. I don't know. Oh my God, it's, that's a whole ‘nother podcast, isn't it?
SB: Oof. Yeah. Okay. But good thing this is season five and we're not getting into other podcasts.
CP: Okay. There's one thing that we haven't mentioned yet, and I actually forgot which episode, which of these minisode it's in, but: remember, there's a point at which you're like, “Yeah, just stay tuned. Just listen. We're very fun.” Do you remember that? Which one was that?
SB: Yeah, I do! Oh, I don't remember which one it is. I just remember writing it, and then being like, what the, who says that? First of all, who says that? And then I think I made a quip saying like, “Yeah, if we say it, you know it's true.” So.
CP: So silly, so silly.
SB: We're very fun though, Cat.
CP: Yeah, I know.
SB: I would, I would write that down and then say it again. I think we're fun and we're having a fun time.
CP: Very fun time.
[THEME MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
SB: And there you have it, a revisit of some of our most informational minisodes.
CP: From your fave Midwestern MythBusters who are very fun, coming in, packing the punches. Pow pow with the minisodes!
SB: Psychological damage. That hurts me. That hurts me.
CP: I could not help it, okay?
SB: This is off the rails. It's getting even more out of hand than usual. So let's, let's, let's end it. Let's end it!
You can visit our website, www.matterfatpod.com, to find show notes, especially from those minisodes, because there's so much information. We've got transcripts, info about Matter of Fat, access to older episodes obviously, and links to our Venmo in case you wanna send this some Fat Cash.
CP: Please subscribe, rate, and review our podcast wherever you catch Matter of Fat. And we love, love, love your shares and shoutouts on social media, so please keep 'em coming.
SB: Yeah, until next time when we're back with another episode of–
Both: –Matter of Fat.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
SB: Um, hi, this is Saraya coming to you live from the same, same place I always come to you from. The reason I brought you all here today is to share all those dieting examples that I didn't get to share in the previous episode or even the previous mini episode. You know, I guess I'm not that good at compromise, but if you made it this far, strap in. Listen up. This is, these are the other examples I've got for you.
Okay. So we talked about, uh, Horace Fletcher and his like 1903 chewing fondness. So here we're gonna jump into after World War I. So there was a social revolution between moralism through prohibition, so at that time there was also a new form of feminism–or not feminism, but like feminine fashion focused in on androgynous thinness, but like more so in reducing curves, which is like very white supremacy. It is, it is giving eugenics.
But magazines geared towards women and companies started finding ways to really enforce those beauty standards and have people pay for them. So they started selling bathroom scales, chewing gums and pills that had really ill effects, like even death or going blind. But also, in an effort to enhance your metabolism at this time, cigarettes were advertised as health aids. Yuck.
Hollywood was a big contributor to these ideals of beauty, so, that’s fun. Then the Great Depression came in, and we talked about this a little bit in the minisode, but it showed that like, overindulgence in food was really amoral with so many people going hungry.
And so this belief of like, fatness, was really equated with eating and eating in excess. And this came in the form of like, even more diet aids and more products on sale, and then increase in laxatives too.
Um, World War II there was rationing of foods, and so if you were to eat anything beyond what was already allotted to you or grown in your own home–think like, victory gardens–you were seen as unpatriotic. So then, think about the vitriol that fat people would get, if they assume that you're fat because you eat more and you eat more than anybody else. Well, now you're, you know, a “terrorist”. That's a little, that's a little bold of me. That language wasn't utilized at that time, but okay.
Anyway, so, alright. No wonder Cat made me go so fast through this. We're not even speeding through the decades yet. So, in 1943, the US Federal Government issued its first guidelines for good nutrition and recommended that everyone eat from the following seven food groups every day: vegetables, citrus and salad greens, potatoes and fruits, milk and dairy, meat and poultry, bread and cereals, and finally butter and margarine. These guidelines were, and always are, important in that they helped determine school lunch programs; programs for the hungry; which crops should be raised; subsidized; et cetera. So this is where we do see some of that government intervention coming in and like really dictating what is and isn't allowed to be consumed.
Um, okay. Cool. In 1942, the Metropolitan Life–so MetLife Insurance created the first age and weight tables that showed ideal weights for men and women based on their height and still going strong. In the mid 1940s, Sears, Roebuck and Montgomery Ward began to offer plus size clothing for women. The notation was a standard size with a plus mark after it. So an example would be like, size 14+.
In 1949, doctors formed the National Obesity Society to understand the causes, consequences, prevention and treatment of obesity. But then that year later is that British study that we talked about.
Um, let's see, what else. We talked about this in the minisode, but like, Weight Watchers was created in 1962 and they originally used a diet designed for cardiac patients by the New York Health Department. Uh, or sorry, the New York Department of Public Health. Like, solid business move, still paying off dividends for them.
And, uh, here we are! Thank you for letting me take up your time and really talk about all these other diets that I found out about.
Um, that's all. Thanks for listening. Bye.